More help with wooden sword specs

[Linda Heenan]

Hi everyone. I just got an email from Raven Studios which I don't have the expertise to reply to, so I'll post the main part here to ask for advice before replying to them.

Dear Linda Heenan,



Your training swords are nearly complete. I'd like to give you the

specs at this point as compared to the sample GRTC jian that I have.



Sample GRTC jian (oak) - weight = 1 lb. 2 oz., POB = 8" from guard



The GRTC jian I made from hickory, so it's a bit heavier at, 1 lb. 8 oz.

and the POB is 6,5 " from the guard.



The "RS/GRTC combo" jian, also hickory, weighs 1 lb. 6 oz. and the POB

is 6.75" from the guard.



Because the overall weight of these swords is a bit heavier I thought

you might want me to pull the POB back closer to the guard a bit. I

would achieve this by drilling into the pommels and adding lead plugs.

It's up to you, I just thought I'd give you the option.

I'm okay with them being a bit heavier than expected but I need advice on how to answer the question about point of balance. Could some people who know what they are doing with this please respond so I can get back to them. I've managed to find a practise partner and will be able to start very soon.

[B.Ko]

Hi Linda,



the heavy weight is good...more like the real thing.

POB on the RS swords are a little tricky...I don't have a clue how long (from the handle to blade) the GRTC sword guard is. The RS standard Ming guard is 2" long. Most metal swords (factory made ones) have guards from 1" to 1.75" long. So if anyone gives you advice on what the POB on their favorite sword is factor in the length of the guard and measure yours from the proximal(handle side of the guard)



If I recall Mr. Trim on the swordforum has commented on most jians having POB of 5"-6" from the distal side of the guard.

Another way is to measure the POB as a percentage of total length...once again to my best recollection of sword forum posts the real ones were roughly 35-40% of total length measured to the POB from the pommel.



My raven studio swords have POB around 5.5" from the distal side of the ming guard and handles quite similarly to the D. Guertin Bat Jian I own. I know that RS had advised me about POB around 4-5". My limited experience in the Public form and imitating the basic cuts from the DVD's have shown that having POB too close to the guard initially feels good but the blade 'wobbles' and one really is dependent on the wrist and body to direct the cut. With the POB between 5-6" the momentum adds power to the cut and for me anyway the sword seems to 'move itself' and take your body for the ride in certain movements. My teacher also confirmed this for me.



I think the best bet is to have a POB near the historical range...Sifu Rodell your expertise would be greatly appreciated.

[Linda Heenan]

Thanks Ben. That info was a whole lot more than I knew and will be helpful. I don't know that we'll hear from Laoshi on this one since he's away in China right now. I'll wait for a couple more days before replying to the email though, to give others a chance to add more advice before I make the decision. As I see it, the body is supposed to power the sword, so putting the POB in favour of that might actually be a good thing.

[Linda Heenan]

I've been reading up on this topic as much as possible, but still not come up with the answer. Apparently it can be individual and you need to actually handle the sword to see what works best. Of course, everything I've found has been about real swords, not wooden ones. Here's something interesting from Philip Tom a long time ago on SFI:

You need to look at BALANCE. Because so much of jian technique relies on accurate thrusts and jabs, the blade can't be excessively tip-heavy, or else the weapon will be fatiguing to use. However, the point can't be too "lively" since you'll need a certain amount of mass to execute the various nips and cuts. The basic performance criteria in these areas will undoubtedly be made clear by your sifu or laoshi

It doesn't answer the question though, so I'm still interested in answers for this one. Some of you guys use these wooden swords in training every day. What do you think? The wooden Jian I have is lighter and quite different. My steel practise sword doesn't compare either, so I have no real reference to go by.

[Linda Heenan]

This evening I went down to the park that is only a few hundred meters from my house, to practise with my Jian. Yesterday it was so hot I drank about two liters of water after practise and had to take a cold shower. Today, in stark contrast, it was freezing cold and so windy I was actually blown off the one legged ci in first section Michuan. Fortunately no one was looking. I usually have an audience because most people around here have never seen a sword. Yesterday someone told me what I was doing looked graceful and beautiful. Of course, that person has never seen Laoshi do it, or they would find different adjectives for me.



Anyway, I got to thinking, as my form collapsed in the wind, that I need every advantage I can get. I know that only an Aussie would think up something like this, but, since one of the wooden jian's was especially designed for me and the other is fairly generic - for whoever I could find as a partner to use ..... I should make my one perfect and the other one less well balanced *evil grin*.



I'm shifting in favour of the POB close to the guard, at present. This ought to make the tip more lively .... right? And we do use the tip a lot in this style. Anyway, a decision must be made, so I'll decide, rightly or wrongly, On Sunday night my time.



Am I joking about making one of them better? Hehe, we shall see. My first practise partner has about 20 years in swordsmanship and I have ...... 2.

[B.Ko]

I must explain myself. The body does direct the cut but with a POB too close to the guard the blade lacks the inertia to keep it steady in the tracking of the blade. Also with the POB too close to the guard the lack of inertia makes the power of the cut less effective.



I gathered this from posts on POB and jians by Mr. Angus Trim as well as personal experimentation. With my Paul chen Practical sword with a POB of 5.5" (4" from distal side of guard) I find the blade 'wobbles' in the stroke. With swords with a more distal POB once the movement is initiated the inertia keeps it going straight and lends 'power' to the cut.



Mr. Trim advised that a POB too close to the guard may affect the ability of the sword to deflect as well as deliver effective cuts.



I would stick with a POB (measured from distal side of guard as RS does when they give you a number) between 5-6" with 5.5" ideal for me.

[Linda Heenan]

Yes, thanks Ben. They just sent me another email because they are keen to get them shipped. I replied with the same specifications you posted, moments before getting your last post, so my research has led to the same conclusion.



Linda

[Linda Heenan]

My two wooden jians from Raven Studios arrived today. I'm very happy with them. As noted before, I ordered one made exactly to GRCT specifications and one with a custom hilt. Both are excellent. Now I'll be able to pair with a swordsman I know who has been studying the DVD and move on with another stage of training. Any advice for this next venture would be welcome.



Here's a picture of the different hilts, followed by one of the two wooden jians together.

[Linda Heenan]

The second picture. It wouldn't fit in the previous post. Try hitting refresh, if it doesn't load quickly enough on your computer.

[Seth Davis]

Very nice. I think I might like to buy a custom made one too.

[Linda Heenan]

I said what I thought of the Raven Studios jian and it is only fair to speak up on Ravio's as well. Two of them arrived this week, both earmarked for other people, so I can't test them out in a sparring situation.



I actually like the feel of them even better than the first ones. They look good and they feel great. In my opinion, they have superior balance, and anyone would do well to get hold of one of these if they can. I'll edit this to post a picture before mailing them off to their owners.



Linda



Edit: The pictures of Ravio's jian



http://img87.imageshack.us/my.php?image ... an14ue.jpg



http://img293.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... an29xu.jpg

[Scott M. Rodell]

Mandarin Mansion just started offering Wooden Jian, please see:

http://www.mandarinmansion.com/wood.htm



They sent me two for Product Testing, I should post the result of that test this coming week...

[B.Ko]

I ordered and received a couple of Ravio's Jians. There is quite a variation in weight and stoutness of blades. However Scott Rodell advised me that was on purpose to allow one to customize.



Judicious use of a saw and a sanding block to 'bevel' edges of blades have helped to shift balance. I may also add lead weights as advised to shift POB to match my antiques exactly.



the handguard is definitely more functional. Comparing it with my Raven studios swords made me aware of how dangerous the Raven ones may be as they lack 'width' to protect your knuckles like Ravio's Jians.



The contour of the handles is more accurate to real swords. They're quite comfortable in the hand.



I suppose the advantage to Raven Studios is they can do a Ravio Clone. Plus they'll do the length, weight, POB for you so you're ready to go.



I don't know which wood is more durable however.

[Bob B.]

Linda,
I have a question for you, how exactly was shipping accomplished
to Australia. I also am into martial arts, and make wooden swords
but I live in Alaska and am having trouble shipping through customs
even though basicly their just big wooden sticks. I've been making
swords for our school now for about 3yrs but most have been
local, shipped domestic to the lower 48, or hand (airlines) carried
to norway. Any help would be apprieciated Bob B.

[Linda Heenan]

Hello Bob,
It is legal to import any kind of swords into Australia, blunt or sharp steel, wooden, etc. The only state you might have difficulty with is Victoria, who have some interesting sword legislation. There are customs regulations to do with importing body armour, but swords are quite legal.

Some post offices are a bit finicky about the length of objects sent by airmail. Others are not. This is because there is a certain length of boxes they like to stick to on the planes. However, if you find a less officious post office worker who passes the long object, it will find its way to Australia with no difficulty.

There is duty (or GST) to pay on any imported item with a value higher than $1000 AUD. It does not matter if the item is antique, preowned, or anything else. You are expected to leave documentation proving the value of the import, in a clear plastic slip attached to the outside of the shipping box. The sales docket should be included. If this is not done, the imported items will end up in a Customs checking shed, a note sent to the recipient, and the item delayed for several weeks.

It isn't necessary to call a sword a decorative piece of metal, or any such thing, since there is no law against importing swords. Call your swords wooden jian, or whatever they are. Don't call them weapons though. Call them sports equipment, theatrical props, martial arts training gear, reenactment equipment, or anything else. Weapons would, of course, be confiscated. It's all in the intent.

Customs will want to check any wooden item in case of bugs being imported with it. If they are treated in a way Customs considers good enough to destroy alien species, they will be allowed. If there is any chance of there being bugs, fungus, etc, they will not be allowed through. This is the case whether you mail them or carry them in your airline luggage. I've never had any problem importing Raven Studios swords. They look polished and clean.

Anyway .... let's see soms pics of your swords. Tell us about them.

Linda