Militia jian weight

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Peter Dekker
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Militia jian weight

Post by Peter Dekker » Thu Nov 08, 2007 8:43 am

Hi,

I recently got a question from a client about why militia jian tend to be heavier than literati jian. It is often explained by the fact that militia were not as well trained and therefore used more clumsy weapons.

Upon writing my reply I realised it would be an interesting matter for public discussion. Because I like to make my thoughts on this interesting subject publicly discussable, I paste what I have replied below:
I tend to attribute the difference in weight to other factors rather than a lower level of training by their users. I will attempt to explain why:

Martial arts traditions were widespread and those joining militia often came from martial arts groups that flourished throughout 19th century China due to the decline of the Qing dynasty. The Imperial army was underpaid, unmotivated and their weapons and methods proven to be obsolete in confrontations with the English and Japanese. Famine struck the country after a number of floods and other natural disasters and people that were not affected needed to protect their crops, shops and homes for the ones that came to take food by force. Bandit groups started to form as well as militia to fight them off. It was in this setting that the many rebellions emerged and roamed the country. In this context, it might be wrong to assume that most people were trained last-minute. Many have been born, lived their whole lives, and died in a village under constant threat of bandit raids, plunder of roaming Imperial army troops or rebels. Therefore I like to speculate that the difference in weight was more related to the stength of the user and the intended use of the weapon rather than anything else.

Strength
Hard working peasants that are used to work with tools day in day out will likely have more strength to handle heavier things than literati who, not unlike our officials nowadays, were often known for their round bellies from lack of physical movement and abundance of good food. A heavier jian, although more difficult to wield, has more power behind the cut. It is also hardly the case that beginners in any field are provided with heavier equipment than the more skilled people.

Intended use
These militia peasants were much more likely to end up at the vulnerable front lines in battle, while the literati commanded them from a distance. Battlefield weapons go through more rigorous use than self defense weapons and like any heavy duty tool in our time, are bound to be more massive and heavier to sustain repeated beating. Also, civilian self defense weapons probably needed to be lighter to be carried at all times and in order to make fast changes of direction possible as an individual fighter needed to ward off attackers coming from multiple directions. Militia groups probably stored their weapons in a central depot when not in use, so they did not have to be worn on their sides all the time. They also fought side by side and generally only moved forward or backward in their lines, with not much sudden changes of direction left or right as their allies would stand there. (You see this in civilian v.s. military forms as well where the public Yang form has much more changes in direction than the more military Michuan forms) While no armor was worn at the time, we know that layers of cloth often served as protection from cuts. So when a cut didn't come through all the layers of cotton and silk, they at least wanted enough percussive force from the cut to still do damage or affect the opponent's balance.
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Heavier vs. Lighter Jian

Post by Scott M. Rodell » Thu Nov 08, 2007 10:05 am

I think you have covered everything quite well Peter...

Another way of looking at the question of Heavier vs. Lighter Jian is one of skill. If we are talking about a jian of 2 lbs. vs. one of 1.75 lbs, both could cut quite well. However, the 2 lb. jian is pushing the limits of most of what most can wield with accuracy for any length of time. (As a veteran of many 6 hour a day seminars I can tell you that there's no question accuracy slow fades through out the day & is barely hanging on at 4 pm on Sunday). Now if one is a peasant, or generally unskilled swordsman, who is just swing the sword looking to connect anywhere, accuracy isn't really part of the game plan. Obviously, if one can not be reasonably certain of hitting a vital spot then one wants to hit hard enough to knock the duifang off balance. On the other hand, if one can cut with speed & accuracy to a vital target, then extra weight is unnecessary & only serves to wear one out & compromise that accuracy. So the literati or any skilled martial artist who has sufficient training to fight with skill is more likely to chose the lighter weapon. Farmers & townsfolk who never had the free time for training are going to opt for a weapon who's weight lends them confidence.

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Post by Peter Dekker » Thu Nov 08, 2007 10:34 am

Thanks for your additional comments, Scott. I was already hoping you would add to the discussion.

Yours is the explanation my client originally thought to be the main reason.

As it turns out from both historical and practical considerations, it probably was a matter of many factors.

-Peter
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Post by Lucas van der Aart » Thu Nov 08, 2007 4:05 pm

Hi Peter,

Maybe a crazy idea, but how about the following. Maybe it was more expensive / difficult to make a lighter sword with the same strength (e.g. more special type of steel, more skill and more time to produce).

Anyway, just a thought.

BR,

Lucas

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Post by Linda Heenan » Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:53 am

What about this one? I somehow had in mind that my Qing jian was a scholar's sword. I can't remember asking about that though, so I'm not sure where that thought came from. However, it is the heavier weight, at over a kilo. The fittings are from the same time period, but from a different sword. I'd like to know which it is, and if it is some sort of exception to the general rule.

Image

Image

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Post by Euan » Fri Nov 09, 2007 4:18 am

Linda, your question is similar to one I was thinking about - Can you tell a militia one from a "literati" one even without the original fittings.
ie do they form a distinct group or do they tend to fit within the range of "normal" (maybe just a subgroup?)

I realise there will be less conformity to them as a group than say military Dao, reflecting the fact that they would have been made locally rather than to a regulation standard, but it seems likely (to me) that there would have been a "convergent evolution" of the style because of the similar way they would have been used.

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Post by Scott M. Rodell » Fri Nov 09, 2007 7:44 am

Linda Heenan wrote:... my Qing jian was a scholar's sword... heavier weight, at over a kilo...
First we should make clear that the commonly used term "scholar's sword" is a misnomer. There is no Qing period term that could be translated as "scholar's sword". This term is oftern used to describe better quality jian. The problem with the term "scholar's sword" is that it implies that is another kind of jian a "military" or "martial" sword. If one examines a large pool of jian, one will find that there is little substantial difference in quality of the blade when it comes to their structural integrity or functionality. The difference is in the fit & finish, quality of the fittings etc.

We should also note that for most of Chinese history, scholars, the landed gentry, & literati, looked down on martial arts & all things military. They might hang a jian in their studies for fengshui reasons, but few would even consider actually training with any weapon. Having said this, everything changed in times when these landed rich guys were in danger of losing their property & position. Much of the 19th century was just such a period. And so, not surprisingly, we see a lot of jian from this period when the landed gentry organized local militia to deal with bandits, rebels & revolutionaries.

So what's the difference between a militia jian & others (commonly refered to in Mandarin as "Bao Jian" or precious sword), the hilt & scabbard fittings, the finish of the blade, more generally, the length, with militia jian generally being shorter.

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Post by josh stout » Fri Nov 09, 2007 8:49 pm

Linda-
I think "militia jian" is a term we are also using as a sort of post hoc category. It seems to be a term we are using for a category of swords that were made by village smiths in the late 19th c. with short heavy blades, iron fittings, plain elm-wood handles, and no sheaths. I would differentiate them from more nicely finished weapons such as yours, but also I would differentiate them from the class of similar village made "iron jian” that often are a bit shorter than even the "militia jian" with all iron fittings welded on, and often with elements of a Ming style such as a hole through the iron pommel. These duan jian appear commonly to be a bit older, and come in a wide variety of styles and qualities. Many still have sheaths, and they often will have decorative engraving. Clearly there is overlap in categories, and wide variation within them, but I still think it is useful to have at least some common terms.
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Post by Peter Dekker » Sat Nov 10, 2007 4:16 pm

Here two examples of the shorter, heavier "one piece" type that Josh describes:

Image

These two are fairly heavy for their length, weighing a bit over 900 grams each with a blade length of only some 55 cm. Due to their shortness, they produce less torgue while being capable of delivering quite a blow.

Perhaps not coincidentally, they appear to date from another age of dynastic decline: the Ming - Qing cataclysm. As such, they might be made and used for a similar purpose as the later militia jian we encounter from the 19th century.

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Post by taiwandeutscher » Sun Nov 11, 2007 12:01 am

Scott M. Rodell wrote:
Linda Heenan wrote:... my Qing jian was a scholar's sword... heavier weight, at over a kilo...
First we should make clear that the commonly used term "scholar's sword" is a misnomer. There is no Qing period term that could be translated as "scholar's sword". This term is oftern used to describe better quality jian. The problem with the term "scholar's sword" is that it implies that is another kind of jian a "military" or "martial" sword. If one examines a large pool of jian, one will find that there is little substantial difference in quality of the blade when it comes to their structural integrity or functionality. The difference is in the fit & finish, quality of the fittings etc.

We should also note that for most of Chinese history, scholars, the landed gentry, & literati, looked down on martial arts & all things military. They might hang a jian in their studies for fengshui reasons, but few would even consider actually training with any weapon. Having said this, everything changed in times when these landed rich guys were in danger of losing their property & position. Much of the 19th century was just such a period. And so, not surprisingly, we see a lot of jian from this period when the landed gentry organized local militia to deal with bandits, rebels & revolutionaries.

So what's the difference between a militia jian & others (commonly refered to in Mandarin as "Bao Jian" or precious sword), the hilt & scabbard fittings, the finish of the blade, more generally, the length, with militia jian generally being shorter.
Could there be another explanation?
The sword was not a common military weapon from the late Han Dyn. on, only leaders, generals, high ranking officers would carry the noble man's weapon. They used heavy and strong versions of wujian for real fighting, at short periods and of course no teachin' for 6 hrs. There are storries that the generals trained with wooden weapons, even sugar cane sticks instead.
The wenjian, on the other side, was lighter and heavily decorated with stones and preciuos metalls, because it never was supposed to be used in real combat. Like Li Bai, many literati were fond of the sword, for occult or fengshui reasons, but only danced the weapon, never had any combat experiences. Both terms, wenjian and wujian, can be found already in Han sources.

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Post by josh stout » Mon Nov 12, 2007 9:53 am

Still the terms scholars sword and battle sword are a bit too reductive. Clearly Linda's weapon with the heavy blade and simple brass fittings could be called a battle sword for its functionality, but it also could be called a scholars sword for the high quality of the blade and fittings. Only the upper classes could have afforded such a sword, and if they were military officers, they would have a saber instead. So that pretty much leaves the possibility that a Munchu official who had passed the imperial examinations, ie, a scholar owned the sword. The terms don't seem to be that useful if scholars carried battle jian. One would have to categorize jian by weight alone, with two swords having nice brass zoomorphic fittings, but different weights being classed differently, while a lightweight village made jian could be called a scholars sword, which it clearly would not be.
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Post by Peter Dekker » Mon Nov 12, 2007 3:35 pm

taiwandeutscher wrote:Could there be another explanation?
The sword was not a common military weapon from the late Han Dyn. on, only leaders, generals, high ranking officers would carry the noble man's weapon.
As per my information, jian were used in the military in the Ming dynasty, and got replaced by liuyedao during about the half of that dynasty. We tend to see mostly ornate versions of these depicted in Ming artwork because only important people were depicted and hardly ever the lower class military.
Josh Stout wrote:Still the terms scholars sword and battle sword are a bit too reductive. Clearly Linda's weapon with the heavy blade and simple brass fittings could be called a battle sword for its functionality, but it also could be called a scholars sword for the high quality of the blade and fittings.
The fittings are newly made reproductions, unfortunately we don't know for sure what this blade was fitted with but the current configuration is indeed quite plausible. Either way, level of finish should be the key in attributing them to militia or higher class people. To make it more intransparent, some of the better off gentry also played an active role in the militia and might have had nicely finished but functional jian. The peasantry was very poor and there was no need to make their weapons better looking, as long as they were functional.

Also, while militia jian tend to be heavier, there is no reason to believe that all scholars preferred light jian. Some might have liked the feel of a hefty and functional weapon, as many of us on the forum today. Officers that liked weapons may also have fancied jian, not as part of their ceremonial regalia but as part of their collection. A picture in Jackson and Hugus' "Ladder to the Clouds" also depicts the wife and son of a Manchu officer posing with three different sabers, one typical military pattern peidao of the time but also a niuweidao and a large two-hander, indicating that he did own a couple non-regulation sabers next to the saber he was supposed to have.

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Post by Linda Heenan » Mon Nov 12, 2007 3:43 pm

The fittings are newly made reproductions
No ... they are antique, got for me by Scott Rodell and restored fitted to the blade by Philip Tom.

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Post by Peter Dekker » Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:00 pm

Hi,

Oh yes, I see I read over that part too quickly! I assumed they were the fittings Philip Tom has cast for use on jian restorations.

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Post by Euan » Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:51 am

I've had the chance to handle 2 militia type jian since this thread started.
They both felt very similar although they were slightly different weights, lengths etc.

It's not a very big sample I know, but the thing they had in common was little to no taper in the blade, either distal or profile. This no doubt is what gives rise to the tip heaviness.

Is there any truth in Lucas's idea that these blades were easier/quicker to make? Or is an untapered blade no more difficult to make than a tapered one?

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