Form & San Shou Application video Clips

[Salakala]

http://www.fightingtaichi.com/videos.htm



The applications on the link above are being bashed on some forums for not being taiji and being more like boxing & wrestling. are these any good, what do you think?



cheers

jaan

[Tomita]

I am glad you brought this up.



I am myself a student of Wudang Taijiquan, also referred to as Practical Taijiquan, the style practised in these video clips.



Is it good taiji? I think it is. Why? Because in Wudang, all five traditional aspects of Taiji are present. We have the Hand Form, tui shou, san shou, weapon forms(jian, dao and spear) and Nei Gong.

At GTRC, these five aspects are also practised.



The martial aspect is equally important to the health aspect, which is -for me- a basic requirement for good training.



About those video clips in particular, I know first hand that the applications shown there is nothing more than applying the sequences in the hand form. In our applications, one can indeed see some techinques similar to Shuai Jiao, Qin Na an Dian Xue.



But we still are very aware of the principle 'four ounces dispell a thousand pounds', because that is what we are doing. When attacked, there will always be a moment when the attack stops through our doing( we stick and yield), and in that instant, we take over. In Northern Wu style( of which Wudang style is a side branch) Classics it is said that ' in a fighting situation, one must not move first, but when the opponent moves, move first'.

That way, you will be safe and can move away or counter attack.



Is this taiji? I guess it all depends on one's personal definition of taiji. Most people who hear that I do taiji say that it is easy, just moving slowly... They are unaware of the martial side, as if they only see the Yin side of taiji without the Yang. In my humble opinion, no matter what style you practise, you can always learn from other styles. That is why I am on this great forum...What is style, anyway? Every master will have his own preferred hand positions in certain stances. So, I feel that style is not an absolute thing, there are personal adaptations, but still remaining true to tradition. I personally have some physical limitation, being shaky balance on my left side. But when I do not raise my leg as high as some others, that doesn't mean that I am doing a lesser form of taijiquan, does it?



I know that this reply is getting long, so I will restrain myself... I just hope that nobody thinks I am chiding here. I you do, I apologise.



Respectfully,



Tomita

[Tomita]

Hello all,



I have seen that the number of people that have seen this topic has risen.Could have all been passers by, but Salakala's question is mine, too.



Whaddya think of these clips? And don't let my previous elaboration on the subject refrain you, I am very interested in other perceptions, because I might benefit from them.



Zaijian!



Tomita

[G-Man]

I agree with Tomita that today the martial side of taijiquan is grossly underemphasized. The modern standard for skill has been confined to form practice and tuishou instead of ability in a sanshou environment or in practical use. In that respect, we really need to give these guy's credit for exploring taijiquan as a martial art and not just an empty dance. And while their body mechanics might not always be perfect and their jin might not always come from legs and express itself in the hands, at least they are on a path towards discovering their errors and refining their technique. I know from my own experience in sanshou class that it is extremely easy resort to muscular force in the heat of the moment, to not move the body as one unit commanded by the waist, or to dodge attacks instead of yielding and neutralizing. Being in a sanshou environment has helped me see these errors and given focus to my form and tuishou practice. It's great to see other schools trying to make the art real in the same way.

[black matt]

Like G-man I feel that san shou emphasizes(sometimes to a huge degree) problems I am having with the principles. I don't think anyone would argue that it's easier to practice the principles when you're practicing alone in your house than when you're exhausted, you just puked, you're out of breath, and someone is about to jump on your back... In regards to what these people say or think about the videos(ie not being real taiji), I guess that's their business. How many of them, though, are saying it to the faces of the people in the videos?

Laoshi already started a long link earlier emphasizing the mutual importance of the martial and the civil in taijiquan. The classics very easily shoot down anyone trying to argue that the martial aspect should not be emphasized.

San shou is definitely not just about practicing the principles correctly. Just as important is building your spirit. There really is no place to hide when someone is running at you throwing punches. You have to deal with the situation with everything you have, (or don't have). In my experience san shou is a more immediately effective, and maybe easier, environment to build spirit than when I'm practicing alone.

[G0RD0N]

What did I think of the clips?



Well, the thing that I liked is that there was not hard blocking in the few that I looked at. The guy just intercepted and kept contact with the attacking limb, to deliver a counter strike and then continuing to strike.



The first time I saw them I thought they were just a bunch of 'external rubbish', but they seem to be a great deal better than that.



The only problem for me is that, with this type of training, some folk will just end up doing something that's got more to do with the external/hard approach, and end up no where near the principles that we are trying to achieve.



Its also interesting to note that a lot of the guys in the clips looked quite muscular, so you end up wondering whether their strength plays a strong part in their approach.



But saying that, the clips aren't bad. Some will love this approach and some will hate it.

[Tomita]

Hey Gordon (and others )



Regarding the fact that the guys in the clips look fairly muscular.



Some of them also have a background in other martial arts; Neil Rosiak for example, has also competed at a high level in Vale Tudo(mixed martial arts fighting/no holds barred) and submission wrestling, as have some of his students. So that explains why they look muscular. But there are other reasons, too.



In Chinese martial arts there is a saying that goes as follows: Yi li jiang shi hui. Litterally this means ' One power suppresses ten techniques'. Tecnique can be overcome by power, be it mental power, physical power or qi power.... They are,after all, related. Perhaps I might refer to a phrase often used in taiji, being that an arm should be like coiling metal wrapped in silk. It is the same principle, if you ask me.



Here I might come to a point I have previously touched. It is easy for people who do not know the martial side of taiji, to just observe and only see movement, but not technique.



Same goes for practitioners of sanshou; I believe that it is imperative that they use strenght in their applications, which is why body conditioning is a good thing. It can build muscles, yes, but also, it can give speed and extra momentum when you turn from the waist.



Yi dan, er li, san gong fu. First bravery, second strenght, third technique.



Sorry for all the Chinese proverbs I use, can't help it since I study Chinese and besides, if someone has said it better than you can ever say it, why not borrow his words to make your point?



Greetings,



Tomita

[Tomita]

Back again.



If you would like to have an idea where the origin lies of the applications on above mentioned link, I have found a link to an article written by the late Grandmaster Cheng Tin-hung, who died may 7th 2005, age 76, in his home town in Guandong province, China.



Here is the link



http://www.taichichuan.co.uk/informatio ... n10_1.html

[Scott M. Rodell]

The applications on the link above are being bashed on some forums for not being taiji and being more like boxing & wrestling. are these any good, what do you think?

Practitioners of taijiquan tend to focus so intensely on their internal work that they often lose prespective in a larger, functional sense.



I viewed several of the videos, not all, & yes, there were things I would correct if they were my students. I did see a good deal of muscling thru techniques with arm strength. But I also saw good body mechanics, proper distancing & timing. And most importantly, I saw students training, making the effort to understand the martial applications. In our times, when taijiquan, a nineteen century martial art used as military training is presented as "an ancient Chinese heath art," I have to admit that my hat is off to any school working to return to our art's roots. So sure, there are problems with the way they are generating power, from a taijiquan prespective, but I dare say that at least they are training. Unfortunately I've noticed that those who lambast others are also typically those not training hard. So let us act more as brothers & sisters training towards common goals than as opponents simply criticizing the work of others. In this spirit, let us offer useful critiques, not bitter criticism.

[Scott M. Rodell]

In relation to my comment above:

... I did see a good deal of muscling thru techniques with arm strength...

I should begin by stating I'm not a member of the school which presented these video clips, so I am not familiar with their training program. Therefore my comments are base solely on assumptions made by viewing the video & other photos on their website.



It appears that they use heavy weights for strength training as evidenced by the iron balls in several photos. Now on first blush, many practitioners of taijiquan will criticize the use of these weights, & rightly so, because their use will cause muscle tension & thus hardness. Since the secret of taijiquan is "steel hidden in cotton," therefore, exercises that harden the outside, the muscle, are general out. However, we should note that every system of taijiquan employs a type of weight training, we just don't usually thing of it that way because of our approach to this training. What I'm speak of is zhan zhuang. When we are "post standing" with our arms out, we certainly are hold up weights, our arms. (Anyone who doesn't think this is weight training should try it for half an hour. At GRTC, being able to stand in zhan zhuang for 30 min. is the minimum requirement to partake in our sanshou class). Once a student's body mechanics have developed enough, they can progress to weapons training.



Jian training begins with, you guessed it, jian basic stance, which is just another way of saying jian zhan zhuang. Anyone who has recently begun this practice & who is using a real weight sword, will tell you, 5 minutes of basic stance feels like 20 minutes of empty hand zhan zhuang at first. From there, a student may progress to spear training, which includes spear zhan zhuang. This involves standing in a horse stance & with one leg forward with a 10 foot hard wood spear at shoulder height & parallel to the ground. The Yang Family's taiji spear training also involves slowly raising the spear from the ground to a 45 degree upward angle.



So I would say that its not a question of whether there is weight training in taijiquan, but when a student should begin this training & how to preform these exercies correctly. We should note that there is an axiom in taijiquan that the heavier the weapon, the softer the student needs to be. This is because if one moves on to heavier weapons too soon, instead of using internal power, which takes time to develope, the more familiar external muscle strength will be employed. I suspect that by moving to heavy weights too quickly, these taijiquan practitioners may have reinforced their external strength & muscle use, instead of taking time to soften & build strength from the inside out.



I hope these ideas & information are useful.

[Scott M. Rodell]

If we are honest with ourselves, I would bet that every error we might see in the videos mentioned above we can see in our own home schools, & our own practice. So, may I suggest that we put ourselves in their sanshou shoes? Assuming that we all are serious student who want to progress, regardless of how far we may have already come, what training suggestions can we offer on how to improve?

[Linda Heenan]

I have a few questions about zhan zhuang and now looks like an appropriate time to ask them. When beginning into jian training, I discovered standing with the sword, in the Chinese Swordsmanshop book. It seemed important, so I started doing it with no knowledge of how or why, other than what was written in that book. The book said it should be done for more than 10 minutes, so I started with 12. That was achieveable and I quickly discovered there was more to it than just standing there.



After about a week of regular standing, something began happening on the inside. I didn't expect this, having no one around to explain what to expect, but it felt good and I liked it. There was a sense of life and strength growing from the inside. I discovered my mind and body connected better to learn the form if I'd been standing with the sword for about 20 minutes. There was also quite a generation of heat. I shrugged that off because it was Summer but now, in late Autumn, that heat still comes. What is it? Is it just that it's hard work doing zhan zhuang, or is there something happening I don't understand?



Several months later, Laoshi told me about zhan zhuang without a sword. It was a new discovery that it was possible to do this without a weapon. Until then, I'd thought it was holding the weapon that gave the sense of life and energy I had learned to love and really look forward to in standing. Swords usually make me feel good, just by thinking about them . Laoshi explained standing in correct alignment, and Mimic helped me work on that until it seemed right. Laoshi told me a few things to do while standing there and those words were like being given a bunch of keys that unlocked a lot of secrets. I don't know if that was the expected result, but it happened. Zhan zuhang became a way of connecting my mind, body and spirit that I can only describe as powerful.



Now, I have a big question here. I had learned to use this principle in different stances and I'm not sure all of them are valid. In the posts above, Laoshi has explained that it can be done in basic stance with the arms out, as well as with a sword. I want to know if doing it with the arms down is also useful. That takes away the element of weight training that has been explained and makes it less of an exercise in endurance, but the internal things that began happening for me, seemingly all by themselves, without me looking for them, still seem to work with the arms down. I'm working on being able to hold those stances (basis stance with arms out, and basic sword stance), for an extended period of time, just for the challenge of being able to. This is definitely an exercise in endurance. It starts hurting after about 3 minutes, but I'm reasonably good at ignoring the discomfort.



As far as what can be done on the inside while standing goes, I've a feeling, I'm taking beginner steps into something way beyond my understanding at this point. Things began accidentally, but I've already found things to do with my mind, on purpose, that make zhan zhuang seem like just the doorway to a whole world of possibilities.

[Scott M. Rodell]

I have a few questions about zhan zhuang... explained that it can be done in basic stance with the arms out, as well as with a sword. I want to know if doing it with the arms down is also useful...

Different schools will hold the arms in different positions & we should note that zhan zhuang, is not solely the province of taijiquan, but is also practiced by other schools of internal martial arts. There is also a very old practice called baoyi, "embracing the one," which is essentially a type of zhan zhuang. So it would be fair to say that this is an internal exercise that taijiquan most likely absorbed from older arts.



Be that as it may, one can also practice zhan zhuang with the hands lower than shoulder height, either at chest or dantian level, at the sides, or with the hands resting on the dantian with the palms facing in. Which position one employes depends on the desired results as well as the level of one's practice.



For example, once one has established proper body alignment sufficiently enough to begin to fangsong & keep the mind resting in the dantian, one will begin to work on using the mind intent to circulate the body's qi. The arms at shoulder height zhan zhuang position is used in our Yangjia Michuan lineage to learn how to bring out qi for fajin. If one is just beginning to learn to & be able to circulate qi, it will be easier if the hands are resting on the dantian. If one is just getting over being sick, or is tired from a long trip, its a good idea to practice zhan zhuang with the arms lower than usual & with the palms facing in. This is because when circulating qi further out, some will inevitablly be lost. Obviously, if in a weakened state, one doesn't want to lose qi.

[G-Man]

One comment I would make after watching the Grasping Birds Tail and Brush Knee Twist Step videos is that their peng deflections are coming too late. Instead of catching the duifang's punch or kick as it's just coming out, they are warding off when most the strike's energy has already been expressed. This doesn't "bounce" the duifang's energy out and disrupt his body in a way that will create a real opening for a counter.