Zhan zhuang

[jotrakoun]

I have another question. Watching Wang Yen-Nien perform the zhan zhuang exercise, it seems like his arms are extended straight in front of his body, compared to the way Laoshi performs it, where the elbows are more sunken. Is this accurate? And how does it change the quality of the exercise? Thanks.



-- John

[Linda Heenan]

Perhaps it is just the camera angle. Everywhere I have either photos or DVD action of Wang Yen-nien in basic stance, the elbows are down. In fact, in his book, when he is describing the correct and incorrect ways to stand, He says:

Correct

Shoulders lowered, elbows pointed down. Drop both shoulders and let the elbows hang down slightly bent. Only in this position can the upper body relax.



Incorrect

Shoulders lowered and elbows turned out are incorrect because in this position the upper body cannot relax.

But someone else may have more information.

[Tomita]

Hello all,



A while ago, I acquired a book by Jess O'Brien, 'Nei Jia Quan.Internal martial arts. Teachers of Taiji Quan, Xingyi Quan and Bagua Zhang'



It is a nice collection of interviews by yjr author with masters such as Tony Yang, Luo De Xiu, B.K. Frantzis, Gabriel Chin, Tim Cartmell and a few others about their arts. I have learned some valuable things from that book.



Concerning Zhan Zhuang, then. The book also contains an interview with Fong Ha, A taiji and Yiquan master from the Bay area, California. What struck me from reading it, is this:



Fong Ha explains zhan zhuang as an excercise in being natural, being still without any external or internal movement. It is all about equilibrium... One must find central equilibrium in every stance, and to do this, he says, one could train in the following manner, like he did under Master Han Hsing Yuan, direct disciple of Wang Xianzhai:

The practise was very simple; I just stood there holding postures for forty minutes. During that time you would move through eight different postures, one every five minutes. [...]

He further explains that , although he did taiji set, saber, sword or sanshou, he never had had that awareness such as in zhan zhuang. Eventualy, this lead to a fuller understanding of his other forms, why the moves are done in their particular way.



What do you think of this? Is there a preferable way of standing, such as the one described above by Linda (which is the most common, I believe), or can you do zhan zhuang in any posture?



Kind regards,



Tomita

[Linda Heenan]

There is a bit more information on this topic in an earlier thread. My post towards the end of the thread, asks a similar question and Laoshi answers it. Here's the link:



http://www.grtc.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=136

[black matt]

Practicing zhan zhuang is not too complicated. In my experience, it has helped strengthen my body more than anything else. It's one of those things that, if you really think about it too much, you probably won't do it. Not many people want to stand for a long period of time. It does afford the opportunity, though, for aligning your body significantly and relaxing your muscles. If you don't have anyone to correct your posture, I guess you can have a picture taken or videotape it(along with the form), and see if your knees are going past your toes, and whether or not you're leaning back(or forward) Beginner's usually hold their shoulder way up. The classics, of course, are the source of how we should practice.



I also read that book by Jess O'brien and thought it was very interesting. That teacher Gabriel Chin, as Tomita mentioned, is in the lineage of the Yi Quan founder whose quotation was the source of so much discussion in a recent post. I like his use of the word "comfortable" in describing zhan zhuang- if you're not feeling comfortable, you're probably contracting your muscles significantly to hold yourself up. On the other hand, being comfortable does not always mean that you're not in pain. Zhan zhuang can also be practiced in any posture in the form- this is, again, good feedback for how you hold your body and also meant to strengthen.

[black matt]

whoops- looking back at Tomita's post, I guess he didn't use the word "comfortable" to describe zhan zhuang. I think that memory is from his interview in the above mentioned book.

[Tomita]

Hey Matt,



What quotation of Gabriel Chin was it that started the discussion, and where can I find the discussion itself?



Thanx

[Mark M.]

This is unrelated to the previous postings, but since it's about Zhan Zhuang I thought I'd post it here.



This morning near the end of Zhan Zhuang my right elbow and forearm (but not the other arm) started tingling. It was not painful but did not feel like a "good" tingling sensation. It felt exactly like the sensation you get when your foot falls asleep. My guess is my circulation was getting obstructed around my arm somehow--maybe it was angled up too high?



I've never had this happen before, and I believe it was from an error but I'd like to know if anyone else has had this happen before and how to avoid or limit it. I should add that I had not practiced for a couple of days so maybe that had something to do with it?



Thanks in advance.

[black matt]

Tomita, Sorry, I meant to write Fong Ha in my previous replies, not Gabriel Chin. I was referring to the post entitled "State of Taijiquan", and the thread was started just before this thread. There is a long quotation at the beginning of it from Yi Quan founder Wang Xianzhai(I think this is the quote you were asking about)



Mark M. I've never had my arm fall asleep during zhan zhuang, if that's what happened to you. Did you do rolldowns beforehand? They can help loosen up the shoulders and arms. I want to say don't worry about it, and don't let it keep you from practicing, but I'm not a doctor(though I do play one on television).

[jotrakoun]

I hear standing too long gives you varicose veins....

[Linda Heenan]

Only if you're also standing for long hours in your job all day. You'd have to stand for hours at a time. The main causes are being overweight, genetic propensity, and hormonal changes during pregnancy. I have all of those factors during my lifetime, and I still don't have varicose veins *shrugs* Oh, the other well known cause is aging. So it appears the risk for a young, reasonably fit male, is minimal. Besides, my experience of standing is that it seems to have value for healing ..... or perhaps I've just discovered a key to that which works in my case. I seem to be able to make parts of my body work better. Everyone's experience is probably unique. On the other hand, I'm quite a serious risktaker and can remember 7 near death experiences without even thinking. What's life without a bit of danger?



Linda

[black matt]

I hear standing too long gives you varicose veins....

If you're reasonably healthy, I really don't believe you can stand for too long- Gravity is Good! You should go for as long as you can, and then probably go a little more. It's good to set goals for yourself, too. For instance, working up to 10, 20, 30 minutes, and so on. The only way to know the effects is to do it a lot and see what happens.

[james64]

cool site! keep up the good work!

[Scott M. Rodell]

... question. Watching Wang Yen-Nien perform the zhan zhuang exercise, it seems like his arms are extended straight in front of his body...

Everyone knows the saying a picture is worth a 1,000 words...

[TCosta]

A question (most interested in Laoshr's input, but anyone feel free to comment):

How far should I sink, when doing zhan zhuang? I was corrected, last night, in my post standing, because I was too low - my knees went beyond my feet. Is there an ideal height to sink to, in zhan zhuang? I actually went home and stood with my toes to the wall and sank down - it wasn't far.

Thank you.

-Trevor