37 Form Discussion
Moderator:Scott M. Rodell
In class on Wednesday, I mentioned the Youtube video of Cheng Man-ching performing his entire 37 short form. For those of you who haven't seen it yet, here's the link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USJPmCZ6 ... ed&search=
I think that if Cheng were to come to GRTC and do this form, he would be criticized as sloppy. What are your thoughts on this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USJPmCZ6 ... ed&search=
I think that if Cheng were to come to GRTC and do this form, he would be criticized as sloppy. What are your thoughts on this?
-
- Rank: Chang San feng
- Posts:83
- Joined:Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:26 am
- Location:Gaoxiong, Taiwan, R.o.C.
- Tashi James
- Rank: Chang San feng
- Posts:184
- Joined:Thu Jun 30, 2005 8:40 pm
- Location:2012 Sydney
- Contact:
re
There looks to be alot of intention in the footwork and if you look closely you can notice the sinking and fajin from the root
that how it looks anyway
that how it looks anyway
"There is nothing that does not become easier through familiarity" (Santideva).
"We become what we do repeatedly. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit" (Aristotle).
"We become what we do repeatedly. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit" (Aristotle).
-
- Rank: Yang Chenfu
- Posts:41
- Joined:Thu Jan 29, 2004 11:41 am
We practice both Zheng Manqing's and Wang Yen-nien's taiji at Great River.taiwandeutscher wrote: Zheng Manqing's living indoors call Master Wang much too hard.
Do you have any actual experience with Master Wang? If so, your first-hand experience would be much more useful than a vague reference to what Zheng Manqing's "living indoors" said. Perhaps, if you do not have first-hand experience, they can inform and enlighten us.
-
- Rank: Chang San feng
- Posts:107
- Joined:Wed Jan 28, 2004 5:34 pm
- Location:Tallinn, Estonia
- Contact:
I would not criticize any of the masters.
I didn't see any sloppiness in Zheng's form - just plenty of fangsong good rooting and nice movement full on mind intent.
Indeed - no immediately visible martial applications, but I see that they are present - much more than many people I've seen practicing Chen or whatnot in the parks...
And to be fair - here is the form by master Wang: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbcZlHHoUO8
I didn't see any sloppiness in Zheng's form - just plenty of fangsong good rooting and nice movement full on mind intent.
Indeed - no immediately visible martial applications, but I see that they are present - much more than many people I've seen practicing Chen or whatnot in the parks...
And to be fair - here is the form by master Wang: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbcZlHHoUO8
Roland
-
- Rank: Frequent Contributor
- Posts:18
- Joined:Wed Jun 07, 2006 3:27 pm
- Location:Washington, DC
here is the other video of Master Zheng that I mentioned in class
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4603FB2 ... ed&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4603FB2 ... ed&search=
-
- Site Admin
- Posts:1364
- Joined:Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:50 pm
- Location:Virginia
- Contact:
Re: 37 Form Discussion
Checking in from Nederlands...
Perhaps he might look that way to a beginner because he was truely quite soft & this advanced level of fongsong might appear sloppy. Also he is not as ëxpressive in this video, taken later in his life, as he is in early photographs, his practice became more internalize. So it is a difference between how one should pracitce early in one's life & how one practice once a high level has been achieved.jotrakoun wrote:... Cheng... would be criticized as sloppy. What are your thoughts on this?
-
- Rank: Chang San feng
- Posts:83
- Joined:Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:26 am
- Location:Gaoxiong, Taiwan, R.o.C.
black matt
Take it easy, black matt, if there is sloppy, there is hard.
Listen to your teacher Mr. Rodell!
Of course, I have touched Master Wang, he was too strong for me, so I don't dare to judge him, but have to train with the softer ZMQ's last living indoors, Masters Xu in Taibei and Master Ju in Kaohsiung. and already dead Master Song (Master Wang's special friend!)
I'm 9 years here in Taiwan, having more than 20 years of IMA experience, but still I won't be able to enlighten you or anybody.
Remember, Cheng was jugded first!
And you really don't believe those great teachers would wast a sec to talk to you, anyway.
Listen to your teacher Mr. Rodell!
Of course, I have touched Master Wang, he was too strong for me, so I don't dare to judge him, but have to train with the softer ZMQ's last living indoors, Masters Xu in Taibei and Master Ju in Kaohsiung. and already dead Master Song (Master Wang's special friend!)
I'm 9 years here in Taiwan, having more than 20 years of IMA experience, but still I won't be able to enlighten you or anybody.
Remember, Cheng was jugded first!
And you really don't believe those great teachers would wast a sec to talk to you, anyway.
-
- Rank: Yang Chenfu
- Posts:41
- Joined:Thu Jan 29, 2004 11:41 am
Re:
Thank you for sharing your own experience and thoughts about Master Wang.taiwandeutscher wrote: Of course, I have touched Master Wang, he was too strong for me, so I don't dare to judge him.
Although I don't think Jotrakoun intended to criticize Master Cheng, I can understand that you felt he was being judged negatively.taiwandeutscher wrote: Remember, Cheng was jugded first!
-
- Rank: Chang San feng
- Posts:83
- Joined:Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:26 am
- Location:Gaoxiong, Taiwan, R.o.C.
Re:
Thank you for your kind reply!black matt wrote:Thank you for sharing your own experience and thoughts about Master Wang.taiwandeutscher wrote: Of course, I have touched Master Wang, he was too strong for me, so I don't dare to judge him.
Although I don't think Jotrakoun intended to criticize Master Cheng, I can understand that you felt he was being judged negatively.taiwandeutscher wrote: Remember, Cheng was jugded first!
-
- Site Admin
- Posts:1364
- Joined:Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:50 pm
- Location:Virginia
- Contact:
This Vs. That
I studied in both Zheng Manqing's lineage with his senior student T.T. Liang & with William C.C. Chen, Robert Smith & others briefly in while I was in Taiwan. I also studied with Wang Yennien who is my principle teacher. From both sides I heard students adamantly proclaim thier teacher beat the other.
I could not care less. All that is important & useful is that these two lineages offer us all the best there is of this wonderful art. Since I am no where the level of any of these great teachers, it makes no difference to me which was softer, more powerful, or whatever. Even if there is a difference, it would be like saying, the most wealth man in the world has more money than the second wealthiest man in the world. They have so much more than me, what do I care?
I have also been criticized, almost always behind my back, for studying in both systems. One classmate under Wang, told me I was disloyal for studying both systems. Yet, curiously, this man thought it fine practice Karate & Hungar while studying with Wang. I was also refered to as a "defrocked priest" by an American teacher who studied with Zheng. However, this teacher also studied Baguazhang & Xingyiquan. I always found it curious that I was so wrong in these peoples eyes for studying two systems that came from the same man - Yang Luchan. None of three master teachers I studied with, Wang, Liang or Chen ever told me not to study in the other system. Quite the opposite, they often gave me special attention, not because I was loyal or not, but because I worked hard & gained for this effort.
Zheng's & Wang's students are cousins. Let us remember that a house divide will not stand.
I could not care less. All that is important & useful is that these two lineages offer us all the best there is of this wonderful art. Since I am no where the level of any of these great teachers, it makes no difference to me which was softer, more powerful, or whatever. Even if there is a difference, it would be like saying, the most wealth man in the world has more money than the second wealthiest man in the world. They have so much more than me, what do I care?
I have also been criticized, almost always behind my back, for studying in both systems. One classmate under Wang, told me I was disloyal for studying both systems. Yet, curiously, this man thought it fine practice Karate & Hungar while studying with Wang. I was also refered to as a "defrocked priest" by an American teacher who studied with Zheng. However, this teacher also studied Baguazhang & Xingyiquan. I always found it curious that I was so wrong in these peoples eyes for studying two systems that came from the same man - Yang Luchan. None of three master teachers I studied with, Wang, Liang or Chen ever told me not to study in the other system. Quite the opposite, they often gave me special attention, not because I was loyal or not, but because I worked hard & gained for this effort.
Zheng's & Wang's students are cousins. Let us remember that a house divide will not stand.
-
- Rank: Chang San feng
- Posts:83
- Joined:Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:26 am
- Location:Gaoxiong, Taiwan, R.o.C.
Just back from the tuanbai performances and competition (new years congratulations within the Taiji organisation here in Kaohsiung), I totally agree with Master Rodell.
Had another chance to feel Master Ju Hongbin and can only say that generation by generations the skills seem to get lower.
Those master are out of reach, even my daily younger teachers lack far behind, so we never should talk about their levels, instead trying to improve our own.
Had another chance to feel Master Ju Hongbin and can only say that generation by generations the skills seem to get lower.
Those master are out of reach, even my daily younger teachers lack far behind, so we never should talk about their levels, instead trying to improve our own.
-
- Rank: Frequent Contributor
- Posts:18
- Joined:Wed Jun 07, 2006 3:27 pm
- Location:Washington, DC
Cheng Man-ching
For people just starting Taiji, this might be helpful.
http://ru.youtube.com/watch?v=dGBfmEocC ... re=related
http://ru.youtube.com/watch?v=IqLxMPIVA ... re=related
I saw these videos of Cheng Man-ching a while ago and I remember asking Ben why they looked so different to what we were doing in class. By chance I saw them again today after class, and it was nice to notice how similar to Rodel Laoshi`s form they look to me now.
http://ru.youtube.com/watch?v=dGBfmEocC ... re=related
http://ru.youtube.com/watch?v=IqLxMPIVA ... re=related
I saw these videos of Cheng Man-ching a while ago and I remember asking Ben why they looked so different to what we were doing in class. By chance I saw them again today after class, and it was nice to notice how similar to Rodel Laoshi`s form they look to me now.
Re: This Vs. That
Great attitude Scott! I especially wanted to complement you since you are a teacher and thus can lead by example.Scott M. Rodell wrote:I studied in both Zheng Manqing's lineage with his senior student T.T. Liang & with William C.C. Chen, Robert Smith & others briefly in while I was in Taiwan. I also studied with Wang Yennien who is my principle teacher. From both sides I heard students adamantly proclaim thier teacher beat the other.
I could not care less. All that is important & useful is that these two lineages offer us all the best there is of this wonderful art. Since I am no where the level of any of these great teachers, it makes no difference to me which was softer, more powerful, or whatever. Even if there is a difference, it would be like saying, the most wealth man in the world has more money than the second wealthiest man in the world. They have so much more than me, what do I care?
I have also been criticized, almost always behind my back, for studying in both systems. One classmate under Wang, told me I was disloyal for studying both systems. Yet, curiously, this man thought it fine practice Karate & Hungar while studying with Wang. I was also refered to as a "defrocked priest" by an American teacher who studied with Zheng. However, this teacher also studied Baguazhang & Xingyiquan. I always found it curious that I was so wrong in these peoples eyes for studying two systems that came from the same man - Yang Luchan. None of three master teachers I studied with, Wang, Liang or Chen ever told me not to study in the other system. Quite the opposite, they often gave me special attention, not because I was loyal or not, but because I worked hard & gained for this effort.
Zheng's & Wang's students are cousins. Let us remember that a house divide will not stand.
Too often it seems that people have a psychological need to be better than others. This often manifests in various negative ways, including finding some way to fault other people, lineages, styles, arts, etc. However, it can also be used in positive ways as a motivation for self improvement. Rather than trying to tear down other people’s accomplishments in order to feel better about themselves, they should rather simply attempt to improve themselves!
Attempts at elevating the perceived level those people that a person is associated with (teacher, lineage, etc) in no way improves that individual’s abilities. Attempting to lower the perceived level of those not associated with the individual also does not improve their own abilities. People should place their effort and dedication to improving themselves.
After only meeting you for a single weekend workshop, it was obvious to me that you are not only very dedicated to Taijiquan, but that you also put in the effort to attain your knowledge and skills. Again, thanks for being a great example to your students (and others who read this forum).
Dan
-
- Rank: Frequent Contributor
- Posts:18
- Joined:Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:47 pm
Re: Cheng Man-ching
These videos are Cheng Man-ching doing the 108 move Yang Cheng Fu form. The first one is the first section, the second one is the end of the third section/end of form.Juan Botero wrote:For people just starting Taiji, this might be helpful.
http://ru.youtube.com/watch?v=dGBfmEocC ... re=related
http://ru.youtube.com/watch?v=IqLxMPIVA ... re=related
I saw these videos of Cheng Man-ching a while ago and I remember asking Ben why they looked so different to what we were doing in class. By chance I saw them again today after class, and it was nice to notice how similar to Rodel Laoshi`s form they look to me now.