Taiji ruler
Moderator:Scott M. Rodell
- J HepworthYoung
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I keep seeing refferences to a taiji ruler, this object is represented as just under a foot long and made of wood. However I also see evidence of another object called a ruler, often Iron Ruler, which is a traditional Chinese weapon, but seems obscure now.
What is the deal here?
Is there a relationship between these two objects?
Are they both historically accurate?
I think that one is more of a modern invention and one is authentic.
What is the deal here?
Is there a relationship between these two objects?
Are they both historically accurate?
I think that one is more of a modern invention and one is authentic.
- J HepworthYoung
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- Joined:Fri Jul 28, 2006 12:19 pm
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Re: Taiji ruler
I found this quote at the Mandarin Mansion site:
http://www.chinese-weapon.com.tw/english-S204.htm
to the hard whip:
http://www.gungfu.com/htm-weapons/chine ... d-whip.htm
and another hard whip:
http://www.wle.com/products/W604-C.html
and here is one called hard club:
http://www.wle.com/products/WS106-C.html
In his book on Chinese weapons Yang Jwing-Ming states that this weapon was often just a piece of metal and came with and without a handle. Now in a few places there is the statement that the Iron Ruler is the same as the sai. I have also found the Hard Whip called "Bian", and this Bian looks close, but not the same as the weapon Tieh Chi:
http://www.sevenstarstrading.com/html/swords/1112.html
What is the relationship of these weapons, and how do they relate to the taiji ruler?
I have read about Yang Ban-Hou having skill with a weapon like these, is this accurate?
Now what is the relation of the sai, which I have found offered in this form:Its wide quillons make it even useful in Japanese sai-fighting systems, a weapon also known in China as an "iron ruler".
http://www.chinese-weapon.com.tw/english-S204.htm
to the hard whip:
http://www.gungfu.com/htm-weapons/chine ... d-whip.htm
and another hard whip:
http://www.wle.com/products/W604-C.html
and here is one called hard club:
http://www.wle.com/products/WS106-C.html
In his book on Chinese weapons Yang Jwing-Ming states that this weapon was often just a piece of metal and came with and without a handle. Now in a few places there is the statement that the Iron Ruler is the same as the sai. I have also found the Hard Whip called "Bian", and this Bian looks close, but not the same as the weapon Tieh Chi:
http://www.sevenstarstrading.com/html/swords/1112.html
What is the relationship of these weapons, and how do they relate to the taiji ruler?
I have read about Yang Ban-Hou having skill with a weapon like these, is this accurate?
Re: Taiji ruler
This is a problem of pronouncing different words similar. This "tieh chih" is exactly that, an iron ruler that was first used as a measuring stick by merchants (hence the marks for chinese measures), and then, like explained on Scotts website, as a self defense weapon when it was forbidden to use sharp weapons.
The other thing that may or may not have really been a "Taiji ruler" is a wooden stick with a different shape that is used for practicing locks without a partner. The Chen village taiji bang is curved, as far as I know.
It's "iron ruler" 鐵尺 vs. "grand ultimate" 太極.
The other thing that may or may not have really been a "Taiji ruler" is a wooden stick with a different shape that is used for practicing locks without a partner. The Chen village taiji bang is curved, as far as I know.
It's "iron ruler" 鐵尺 vs. "grand ultimate" 太極.
- J HepworthYoung
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Re: Taiji ruler
I can't help but feel like my question remains unaddressed.
The pictures tell all, there is a form relationship of these items that interests me, they all appear to be versions of the same thing. This makes me wonder about the rumors of Ban Hou and what weapons he was proficient in and also wonder about the evolution of weapon designs in this area.
I know that the taiji ruler is not the same as the iron ruler, the names and words were not an issue for me, the physical forms of the objects I am comparing is the issue. A rose by any other name.
The pictures tell all, there is a form relationship of these items that interests me, they all appear to be versions of the same thing. This makes me wonder about the rumors of Ban Hou and what weapons he was proficient in and also wonder about the evolution of weapon designs in this area.
I know that the taiji ruler is not the same as the iron ruler, the names and words were not an issue for me, the physical forms of the objects I am comparing is the issue. A rose by any other name.
- Tashi James
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Re: Taiji ruler
Loushr used to have an iron ruler on his Seven Stars trading site, might be worth a look as well.
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"We become what we do repeatedly. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit" (Aristotle).
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Re: Taiji ruler
Though these arts are being brought together by some practioners these days, taijiquan & the taiji ruler are of serparate origins. I recall a practitioner of ruler showing me a text for the ruler in Taiwan many years ago & saying that it came from Hua Shan arts, but I can not speak to the accuracy of that statment. If we look thru primary source material for taijiquan, you won't find any mention of the taiji ruler.J HepworthYoung wrote:... seeing refferences to a taiji ruler... Are they both historically accurate?...
Re: Taiji ruler
AFAIK, the problem occured when people mixed up two things: Taijiquan and the "Taiji bang" from Chen village (a curved wooden stick to practice locks on), and the "iron ruler" (tie chi, a short metal stick to practice some kind of qigong / stick fighting).
- Peter Dekker
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Re: Taiji ruler
Hi,
I normally don't lurk on this section of the forums so I overlooked this post before.
Then there are a number of variations to this weapon, made of iron. Some were hilted and / or had prongs, some were simple just like their wooden counterparts only made of iron / steel. These are obviously weapons, but keep in mind that not every thug (or worker who felt the need to defend himself ocasionally) had to be a martial artist and there is no evidence to link it to any major style.
Then there are two other weapons, jian and bian.
-Jian "maces" are steel rods with a hilt, with smooth surfaces. They come with or without guards. Jian are often square in crosssection, sometimes with fullers, and the blades have a slight taper. Examples with octagonal or other crosssections are also known. Jian is pronounced similar to the straightsword but a different character is used. Jian come in pairs and single weapons. We know that pairs were in use by the Green Standard Army of the Qing.
-Bian are "iron whips" and come in two types: flexible and rigid. The flexible examples are segmented chains, often consisting of an odd number of rods. There are purely a civilian weapon.
Rigid bian and are similar to jian but differ in that they have rods with bamboo-like segments and are usually thicker and heavier than jian. Bian were used in the Qing by the Jianruiying, a special division of shock troops selected out of the best of the Vanguard.
The descriptions on them found on various trade websites are often incorrect. They were not made of gold and no evidence points to their use in capital punishment. I also wouldn't recommend Yang Jwing-Ming's book as a good source.
-Peter
I normally don't lurk on this section of the forums so I overlooked this post before.
As stated before by Scott Rodell, I haven't found a clear connection between this weapon and taiji. The wooden object you describe is exactly what a traditional Chinese ruler looks like. Often they are light, thin and made of hardwood. Hardly a weapon, they may be suitable for pressure point striking but that is about it. They were very common, but of course only carried by working class. I don't find it likely to assume it circled as a weapon in taiji circles as there weren't many working class students of this art at the time, but who knows.J HepworthYoung wrote:I keep seeing refferences to a taiji ruler, this object is represented as just under a foot long and made of wood. However I also see evidence of another object called a ruler, often Iron Ruler, which is a traditional Chinese weapon, but seems obscure now.
What is the deal here?
Is there a relationship between these two objects?
Are they both historically accurate?
I think that one is more of a modern invention and one is authentic.
Then there are a number of variations to this weapon, made of iron. Some were hilted and / or had prongs, some were simple just like their wooden counterparts only made of iron / steel. These are obviously weapons, but keep in mind that not every thug (or worker who felt the need to defend himself ocasionally) had to be a martial artist and there is no evidence to link it to any major style.
Then there are two other weapons, jian and bian.
-Jian "maces" are steel rods with a hilt, with smooth surfaces. They come with or without guards. Jian are often square in crosssection, sometimes with fullers, and the blades have a slight taper. Examples with octagonal or other crosssections are also known. Jian is pronounced similar to the straightsword but a different character is used. Jian come in pairs and single weapons. We know that pairs were in use by the Green Standard Army of the Qing.
-Bian are "iron whips" and come in two types: flexible and rigid. The flexible examples are segmented chains, often consisting of an odd number of rods. There are purely a civilian weapon.
Rigid bian and are similar to jian but differ in that they have rods with bamboo-like segments and are usually thicker and heavier than jian. Bian were used in the Qing by the Jianruiying, a special division of shock troops selected out of the best of the Vanguard.
The descriptions on them found on various trade websites are often incorrect. They were not made of gold and no evidence points to their use in capital punishment. I also wouldn't recommend Yang Jwing-Ming's book as a good source.
-Peter
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Re: Taiji ruler
Almost a decade ago, there was a hard style martial artist promoting a Lin Kong Jin (empty force) training program that referenced the use of a Taiji Ruler (can't say whether the use of the term was valid or not). It was a wooden dowl about a foot long. With lathed wide and narrow areas (middle was wider and the two ends were wide to form knobs for holding). As part of an elaborate chi gung program, the user was supposed to hold the ruler between your hands and move it through various patterns (much like more common chi gung forms but with this item held between the hands). My understanding was that the "Ruler" was used to aid in the projection of chi from the hands. I assume the idea was similar in thought to weapon forms (have never done any so speak from relative ignorance), where my very limited understanding is that the weapon helps one to circulate and maybe to express the chi).
Never bought into the idea so I can't vouch for the effectiveness. Did notice though that the empty force ability, like many others you see on youtube currently, would come and go, and was limited to frequent training partners. It never seemed to work on strangers.
Never bought into the idea so I can't vouch for the effectiveness. Did notice though that the empty force ability, like many others you see on youtube currently, would come and go, and was limited to frequent training partners. It never seemed to work on strangers.