I guess in ancient marital arts running or fighting durability could
be sometimes the key to life - so in the perspective of internal martial arts, did this durability came always from gathered internal force and not from li, external force?
Is it true that internal martial artists did never any jogging or other external aerobic and anaerobic durability training? Or even if they didn?t, probably their everyday life was already full of all kind of activities, that needed long walking, or long lasting ?primitive? kind of (farming or other) housekeeping works - that we can?t even imagine because of the fast technological progress of society...
lauri
Durability in internal martial arts
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Aerobic Quality of Taijiquan
There are 2 kinds of strength. One type of endurance & strength training comes from zhanzhuang. All Great River students should be familiar with this. Zhanzhuang & form training provide a mild aerobic 'workout,' but obviously does not provide demanding aerobic training.
The common view of taijiquan today is that is not an 'aerobic' exercise. This misconception is based on the short sightedness of most observers who view taijiquan as little more than the solo form & perhaps some light push hands training for "sensitivity." However, the system is much more than this. Sanshou & moving step push hands are quite physically demanding & very aerobically demanding to say the least. However, it is real weapons training that are the 'aerobic' & fajin strength training of this art. I say real here because I speak of much more than the wave your sword like a wand method of sword form practice that is the standard these days. (Something our school is working to change!)
After a student is proficient in any weapons form, part of their training with the weapon should include preforming the form at a fast pace where the fajin (releasing power) is practiced with real power at every point called for in the form. Every student should build their weapons training up to the level where they can run thru the form full speed & full power. Preforming any weapons form in this manner is quite aerobically demanding. Needless to say, practicing in this manner is demanding in many other ways as well, staying soft for example. This is why I've always said weapons forms are for advanced training. These days students of taijiquan typically move to sword forms practice well before they have the proper foundation for this training.
The most physically demanding aspect of the system is the spear training. As such it is the last part of the system one learns. Its fair to say that this part of the Yang Family system is nearly lost to the world, so few know it & even fewer seem to practice it. I employed spear training a great deal when I was training for tournaments.
Years ago, when I was training in Taiwan at Wang Laoshi's school, I asked a classmate if he even spoke to Master Wang about learning sanshou. He had. He said Wang told him when he could raise & lower the spear 100 times in succession without letting the tip rest on the ground between repetition he could ask about learning sanshou. My classmate didn't attempt this training. To me it sounded like Master Wang was saying, do your strength training then you'll be ready.
The common view of taijiquan today is that is not an 'aerobic' exercise. This misconception is based on the short sightedness of most observers who view taijiquan as little more than the solo form & perhaps some light push hands training for "sensitivity." However, the system is much more than this. Sanshou & moving step push hands are quite physically demanding & very aerobically demanding to say the least. However, it is real weapons training that are the 'aerobic' & fajin strength training of this art. I say real here because I speak of much more than the wave your sword like a wand method of sword form practice that is the standard these days. (Something our school is working to change!)
After a student is proficient in any weapons form, part of their training with the weapon should include preforming the form at a fast pace where the fajin (releasing power) is practiced with real power at every point called for in the form. Every student should build their weapons training up to the level where they can run thru the form full speed & full power. Preforming any weapons form in this manner is quite aerobically demanding. Needless to say, practicing in this manner is demanding in many other ways as well, staying soft for example. This is why I've always said weapons forms are for advanced training. These days students of taijiquan typically move to sword forms practice well before they have the proper foundation for this training.
The most physically demanding aspect of the system is the spear training. As such it is the last part of the system one learns. Its fair to say that this part of the Yang Family system is nearly lost to the world, so few know it & even fewer seem to practice it. I employed spear training a great deal when I was training for tournaments.
Years ago, when I was training in Taiwan at Wang Laoshi's school, I asked a classmate if he even spoke to Master Wang about learning sanshou. He had. He said Wang told him when he could raise & lower the spear 100 times in succession without letting the tip rest on the ground between repetition he could ask about learning sanshou. My classmate didn't attempt this training. To me it sounded like Master Wang was saying, do your strength training then you'll be ready.
re
if somebody asks me where true endurance and stamina came in taiji gongfu, my answer would be - weapons training. so i agree very much with Lao shr on that. it is what real men should train for 
however, from my personal expirience, i found that comlpementary excersises are good for developing qualities essential in life extrems. all these things should be moderated by good teacher and common sense. for example. i do very light weights shadow boxing for 20 min but i never skip combining it with changchuang as such work should be always followed with good relaxation and neigong. jogging is advised for individuals with good cardio system. if you dont have good cardio, then better to do taiji only, focusing on internal strength lao shr talks.
also do not think light about doing form. novice need to suffer in your thighs when you do it right way. it is also great for stamina
what is good about doing excersises away from your usual routine is that you have a break from them too
however, from my personal expirience, i found that comlpementary excersises are good for developing qualities essential in life extrems. all these things should be moderated by good teacher and common sense. for example. i do very light weights shadow boxing for 20 min but i never skip combining it with changchuang as such work should be always followed with good relaxation and neigong. jogging is advised for individuals with good cardio system. if you dont have good cardio, then better to do taiji only, focusing on internal strength lao shr talks.
also do not think light about doing form. novice need to suffer in your thighs when you do it right way. it is also great for stamina
what is good about doing excersises away from your usual routine is that you have a break from them too
forget to say
that people think light of weapon practice just because they practice it with light weapons. switch to more serious staff and you c the differnce! heavy sword makes the difference.
Spear: Weight and Length
Would people agree that a vigorous spear session gets more things going that a long sword session? Spear really gets your whole body (if you are doing it right.) It works both internal strength and it is a decent aerobic exercise.
definetly not!
as it work on different qualities of gong-fu. you need not only power but speed and agility. sword is excellent at training them. lao shr keeps reminding me of not relying on power much. so every tool has specific purpose. dont compare who is better. work on both if you have time
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Scott M. Rodell
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Training with Spear vs. Jian
Training with either the spear or jian definitely develop power & stamina & are without question a very important part of a serious students training, especially if one wants to play sanshou. While both types of training are power training there are also some differences in the type of power each develops. For example, the spear primarily develops long energy thrusting power (fajin). It also is for expanding the joints & coiling energy. The jian also develops thrusting power, but also many other types of energy, both long & short.
As far as stamina is concerned, the spear develops short burst stamina, like a sprinter needs. While the jian form is longer so it develops 'long distance' stamina.
Above Albert mentioned using light free weights & shadow boxing. This is essentially what we are doing with weapons. There is however one important difference, the weapons we use in training are flexible & much longer than small iron weights. That allows the practitioner to send his or her energy out, down the weapon. However, one could use weight iron weights in a similar fashion to weapons for fajin training. If space is a concern, small weights are certainly more convenient. If using weapons, be careful not to grip the weights tightly in your hands. if you tense your hands to hold onto the weights, you'll be working against your taijiquan by stiffening your hands when you should be loosening them to send the jin thru them.
As far as stamina is concerned, the spear develops short burst stamina, like a sprinter needs. While the jian form is longer so it develops 'long distance' stamina.
Above Albert mentioned using light free weights & shadow boxing. This is essentially what we are doing with weapons. There is however one important difference, the weapons we use in training are flexible & much longer than small iron weights. That allows the practitioner to send his or her energy out, down the weapon. However, one could use weight iron weights in a similar fashion to weapons for fajin training. If space is a concern, small weights are certainly more convenient. If using weapons, be careful not to grip the weights tightly in your hands. if you tense your hands to hold onto the weights, you'll be working against your taijiquan by stiffening your hands when you should be loosening them to send the jin thru them.
actually, we are a bit off original post with remarks types of jin. lauri essentially was asking if other activities can supplement taiji training. Cneng Manching gave excellent answer to this - "Taiji helps everything, but nothing helps taiji" - meaning that many other activities benefit from taiji training, but nothing can replace you taiji training. for example, if you do tuishou and you found yourself out of breath in the class, then jogging (imho) will not help you. reason is that one use too much force in tuishou. BUT, if you find that you have to use LI (for example in tournament) and you cant do it because of stamina and endurance, then taking jogging to improve this particular quality is not bad idea. one just must see under expirience teacher why you are out of breath. so the remedy might be different depending on the reason for this.
but lauri also raised more fundamental question. it was actually - Can you Substitute some parts of training with something you already do better than taiji (everybody good at jogging , isnt it?) in other word it is Supplement vs. Substitution. my answer would be that never substitute taiji training with anything unless you just cant do taiji for physical reasons.
Synergy from any kind of supplementary training cames only in the case you apply taiji to it. i mention my light weight - well, i keep my spine right, elbows down, hands relaxed. in general weight and taiji not good idea unless you follow the principle - never take anything heavier than you can hold in the outstretched hand.
ok, i hope my ideas make sense for you, lauri and othere grtc folks.
lao shr also made very interesting post on the energy types and trainings so it must help you too.
but lauri also raised more fundamental question. it was actually - Can you Substitute some parts of training with something you already do better than taiji (everybody good at jogging , isnt it?) in other word it is Supplement vs. Substitution. my answer would be that never substitute taiji training with anything unless you just cant do taiji for physical reasons.
Synergy from any kind of supplementary training cames only in the case you apply taiji to it. i mention my light weight - well, i keep my spine right, elbows down, hands relaxed. in general weight and taiji not good idea unless you follow the principle - never take anything heavier than you can hold in the outstretched hand.
ok, i hope my ideas make sense for you, lauri and othere grtc folks.
lao shr also made very interesting post on the energy types and trainings so it must help you too.
Regards,
Alberto
Alberto
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Scott M. Rodell
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that is true that breathing in tuishou can benefit if you train it by jogging. well, i get better with breathing then but i also can be better in my old habits of using crude force rather than smart approach leading force into emptiness. i improve but my taiji finally suffer rather benefit because i can just do better what is wrong approach. so finally, it should b very careful with 'supplementary' activities they can do good but also they can harm gongfu progress. again, dont substitute! use brains to find synergy!
Regards,
Alberto
Alberto