37 Form Discussion

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jotrakoun
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37 Form Discussion

Post by jotrakoun » Fri Mar 02, 2007 5:57 pm

In class on Wednesday, I mentioned the Youtube video of Cheng Man-ching performing his entire 37 short form. For those of you who haven't seen it yet, here's the link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USJPmCZ6 ... ed&search=

I think that if Cheng were to come to GRTC and do this form, he would be criticized as sloppy. What are your thoughts on this?

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Post by taiwandeutscher » Sat Mar 03, 2007 3:17 am

A question of perspective.

Zheng Manqing's living indoors call Master Wang much too hard.

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re

Post by Tashi James » Sun Mar 04, 2007 6:50 pm

There looks to be alot of intention in the footwork and if you look closely you can notice the sinking and fajin from the root

that how it looks anyway
"There is nothing that does not become easier through familiarity" (Santideva).

"We become what we do repeatedly. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit" (Aristotle).

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Post by black matt » Mon Mar 05, 2007 1:57 pm

taiwandeutscher wrote: Zheng Manqing's living indoors call Master Wang much too hard.
We practice both Zheng Manqing's and Wang Yen-nien's taiji at Great River.

Do you have any actual experience with Master Wang? If so, your first-hand experience would be much more useful than a vague reference to what Zheng Manqing's "living indoors" said. Perhaps, if you do not have first-hand experience, they can inform and enlighten us.

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Post by Roland Tepp » Mon Mar 05, 2007 4:55 pm

I would not criticize any of the masters.

I didn't see any sloppiness in Zheng's form - just plenty of fangsong good rooting and nice movement full on mind intent.

Indeed - no immediately visible martial applications, but I see that they are present - much more than many people I've seen practicing Chen or whatnot in the parks...

And to be fair - here is the form by master Wang: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbcZlHHoUO8
Roland

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Post by Juan Botero » Mon Mar 05, 2007 7:07 pm

here is the other video of Master Zheng that I mentioned in class

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4603FB2 ... ed&search=

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Re: 37 Form Discussion

Post by Scott M. Rodell » Tue Mar 06, 2007 12:33 pm

Checking in from Nederlands...
jotrakoun wrote:... Cheng... would be criticized as sloppy. What are your thoughts on this?
Perhaps he might look that way to a beginner because he was truely quite soft & this advanced level of fongsong might appear sloppy. Also he is not as ëxpressive in this video, taken later in his life, as he is in early photographs, his practice became more internalize. So it is a difference between how one should pracitce early in one's life & how one practice once a high level has been achieved.

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black matt

Post by taiwandeutscher » Fri Mar 09, 2007 3:30 am

Take it easy, black matt, if there is sloppy, there is hard.
Listen to your teacher Mr. Rodell!

Of course, I have touched Master Wang, he was too strong for me, so I don't dare to judge him, but have to train with the softer ZMQ's last living indoors, Masters Xu in Taibei and Master Ju in Kaohsiung. and already dead Master Song (Master Wang's special friend!)

I'm 9 years here in Taiwan, having more than 20 years of IMA experience, but still I won't be able to enlighten you or anybody.

Remember, Cheng was jugded first!

And you really don't believe those great teachers would wast a sec to talk to you, anyway.

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Re:

Post by black matt » Fri Mar 09, 2007 10:22 am

taiwandeutscher wrote: Of course, I have touched Master Wang, he was too strong for me, so I don't dare to judge him.
Thank you for sharing your own experience and thoughts about Master Wang.
taiwandeutscher wrote: Remember, Cheng was jugded first!
Although I don't think Jotrakoun intended to criticize Master Cheng, I can understand that you felt he was being judged negatively.

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Re:

Post by taiwandeutscher » Fri Mar 09, 2007 10:28 pm

black matt wrote:
taiwandeutscher wrote: Of course, I have touched Master Wang, he was too strong for me, so I don't dare to judge him.
Thank you for sharing your own experience and thoughts about Master Wang.
taiwandeutscher wrote: Remember, Cheng was jugded first!
Although I don't think Jotrakoun intended to criticize Master Cheng, I can understand that you felt he was being judged negatively.
Thank you for your kind reply!

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This Vs. That

Post by Scott M. Rodell » Sat Mar 10, 2007 6:24 am

I studied in both Zheng Manqing's lineage with his senior student T.T. Liang & with William C.C. Chen, Robert Smith & others briefly in while I was in Taiwan. I also studied with Wang Yennien who is my principle teacher. From both sides I heard students adamantly proclaim thier teacher beat the other.

I could not care less. All that is important & useful is that these two lineages offer us all the best there is of this wonderful art. Since I am no where the level of any of these great teachers, it makes no difference to me which was softer, more powerful, or whatever. Even if there is a difference, it would be like saying, the most wealth man in the world has more money than the second wealthiest man in the world. They have so much more than me, what do I care?

I have also been criticized, almost always behind my back, for studying in both systems. One classmate under Wang, told me I was disloyal for studying both systems. Yet, curiously, this man thought it fine practice Karate & Hungar while studying with Wang. I was also refered to as a "defrocked priest" by an American teacher who studied with Zheng. However, this teacher also studied Baguazhang & Xingyiquan. I always found it curious that I was so wrong in these peoples eyes for studying two systems that came from the same man - Yang Luchan. None of three master teachers I studied with, Wang, Liang or Chen ever told me not to study in the other system. Quite the opposite, they often gave me special attention, not because I was loyal or not, but because I worked hard & gained for this effort.

Zheng's & Wang's students are cousins. Let us remember that a house divide will not stand.

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Post by taiwandeutscher » Sun Mar 11, 2007 3:32 am

Just back from the tuanbai performances and competition (new years congratulations within the Taiji organisation here in Kaohsiung), I totally agree with Master Rodell.

Had another chance to feel Master Ju Hongbin and can only say that generation by generations the skills seem to get lower.

Those master are out of reach, even my daily younger teachers lack far behind, so we never should talk about their levels, instead trying to improve our own.

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Cheng Man-ching

Post by Juan Botero » Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:20 pm

For people just starting Taiji, this might be helpful.

http://ru.youtube.com/watch?v=dGBfmEocC ... re=related

http://ru.youtube.com/watch?v=IqLxMPIVA ... re=related

I saw these videos of Cheng Man-ching a while ago and I remember asking Ben why they looked so different to what we were doing in class. By chance I saw them again today after class, and it was nice to notice how similar to Rodel Laoshi`s form they look to me now.

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Re: This Vs. That

Post by Dan Pasek » Tue Mar 11, 2008 1:56 pm

Scott M. Rodell wrote:I studied in both Zheng Manqing's lineage with his senior student T.T. Liang & with William C.C. Chen, Robert Smith & others briefly in while I was in Taiwan. I also studied with Wang Yennien who is my principle teacher. From both sides I heard students adamantly proclaim thier teacher beat the other.

I could not care less. All that is important & useful is that these two lineages offer us all the best there is of this wonderful art. Since I am no where the level of any of these great teachers, it makes no difference to me which was softer, more powerful, or whatever. Even if there is a difference, it would be like saying, the most wealth man in the world has more money than the second wealthiest man in the world. They have so much more than me, what do I care?

I have also been criticized, almost always behind my back, for studying in both systems. One classmate under Wang, told me I was disloyal for studying both systems. Yet, curiously, this man thought it fine practice Karate & Hungar while studying with Wang. I was also refered to as a "defrocked priest" by an American teacher who studied with Zheng. However, this teacher also studied Baguazhang & Xingyiquan. I always found it curious that I was so wrong in these peoples eyes for studying two systems that came from the same man - Yang Luchan. None of three master teachers I studied with, Wang, Liang or Chen ever told me not to study in the other system. Quite the opposite, they often gave me special attention, not because I was loyal or not, but because I worked hard & gained for this effort.

Zheng's & Wang's students are cousins. Let us remember that a house divide will not stand.
Great attitude Scott! I especially wanted to complement you since you are a teacher and thus can lead by example.

Too often it seems that people have a psychological need to be better than others. This often manifests in various negative ways, including finding some way to fault other people, lineages, styles, arts, etc. However, it can also be used in positive ways as a motivation for self improvement. Rather than trying to tear down other people’s accomplishments in order to feel better about themselves, they should rather simply attempt to improve themselves!

Attempts at elevating the perceived level those people that a person is associated with (teacher, lineage, etc) in no way improves that individual’s abilities. Attempting to lower the perceived level of those not associated with the individual also does not improve their own abilities. People should place their effort and dedication to improving themselves.

After only meeting you for a single weekend workshop, it was obvious to me that you are not only very dedicated to Taijiquan, but that you also put in the effort to attain your knowledge and skills. Again, thanks for being a great example to your students (and others who read this forum).

Dan

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Re: Cheng Man-ching

Post by Robert Bemoras » Sun Aug 17, 2008 10:30 pm

Juan Botero wrote:For people just starting Taiji, this might be helpful.

http://ru.youtube.com/watch?v=dGBfmEocC ... re=related

http://ru.youtube.com/watch?v=IqLxMPIVA ... re=related

I saw these videos of Cheng Man-ching a while ago and I remember asking Ben why they looked so different to what we were doing in class. By chance I saw them again today after class, and it was nice to notice how similar to Rodel Laoshi`s form they look to me now.
These videos are Cheng Man-ching doing the 108 move Yang Cheng Fu form. The first one is the first section, the second one is the end of the third section/end of form.

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