Winning without throwing a punch

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black matt
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Winning without throwing a punch

Post by black matt » Mon Oct 16, 2006 10:16 pm

I just watched some clips on ESPN of this boxer I had barely heard of, Willie Pep. He was a featherweight and known as one of the great boxers of all time. He apparently won a round in a fight without throwing a punch, which he had actually predicted he would do before the fight. It reminded me of Laoshi telling us that if you can't be punched, pushed, etc., then you cannot be beat. Here is a link to an article about it.

http://www.eastsideboxing.com/williepep.html

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yowie_steve
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Post by yowie_steve » Tue Oct 17, 2006 6:17 pm

I notice myself that I only get hit when punching or just finishing a punch. By not throwing anything out, you're uncommitted and can move with more ease and clearer sight.

I enjoy moving ever so slightly watching the gloves whizz by and seeing the other guy heaving for breath. I'm finding it hard to pull off the taiji yield - most boxers are head hunters. Although the concept of just "going with it" is definitely better. Getting hit doesn't hurt as much these days.

I like watching good movement and strategy far more than a brutal slug fest. I would've liked to have seen that famous round three of Pep's.

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Post by Marko Kohv » Wed Oct 18, 2006 1:09 am

Willie Pep's profile, consisting short moments of this famos third round:



http://youtube.com/watch?v=oA00dfx9Wmw



One of his matches. The precise, small step footwork is good to watch. Also good throwing opprtunities :P



http://youtube.com/watch?v=IpKHFZ6ixKs

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Post by G-Man » Wed Oct 18, 2006 12:48 pm

This round reminded me of the story about how Ueshiba defeated a naval officer armed with a sword in a similar fashion. Supposedly he evaded the officer's attacks until the latter exhausted himself.



There's some decent video footage of Ueshiba and his sons on youtube:



http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Ueshiba



I browsed a few of them and I believe the third one down has a short segment where Ueshiba deals with students armed with swords. Granted his students are feeding him to some degree, but the old guy sure moved well :).
"Find the center of the circle and you can respond to any situation."

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Post by Scott M. Rodell » Wed Oct 18, 2006 3:37 pm

yowie_steve wrote:... finding it hard to pull off the taiji yield - most boxers are head hunters...


You should yield AND neuralize. There are times when simply yielding with the waist will work just fine for blows aimed at the body, but the head is at the center of the rotation, so it doesn't move with the strike when you turn your waist. So use your lu (rollback) to deal with head shots, working to catch the attacking arm at the elbow with your elbow, & you'll easily deflect those punches, & please, keep your hands up!

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Post by yowie_steve » Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:06 pm

Would lu be similar to slipping back? (Leaning slightly back to put your head just out of reach.)

I've been using that on occasion. Although one of the coaches doesn't like me doing it. He'd rather me slide back and popping out a lead jab.

I don't know why I'm being discouraged to do it, it's natural and quick and works so well.

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Post by Roland Tepp » Thu Oct 19, 2006 6:00 am

yowie_steve wrote:I don't know why I'm being discouraged to do it, it's natural and quick and works so well.
I would speculate the reason to be that if you do that, you are shifting your body so that it is a little out of balance for a while. And although this is for a short moment, and in most cases you could get away with this, this opens up an opportunity for your opponent to press on.



While you are just leaning back you are doing nothing to turn his attacks back at him and thus give him an advantage of initiative. Plus - as you are leaning back - you yourself are essentially escaping him, also giving him room to realize his initiative.
Roland

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Post by Scott M. Rodell » Thu Oct 19, 2006 8:27 am

yowie_steve wrote:Would lu be similar to slipping back? ...


No, when you properly apply lu, you will controll your duifang, leading him or her offline in such a manner that he or she can not easily throw a second strike, while at the same time giving yourself a line directly to his or her center.

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lu

Post by Tashi James » Tue Oct 24, 2006 4:11 am

i have noticed with my very limited experience; that if I lead the duifung off with lu it puts them in a position where you can completely crowd the duifungs centreline. At this point there is ample time for a flurry of strikes or a small push to offset the duifung even further off balance..
"There is nothing that does not become easier through familiarity" (Santideva).

"We become what we do repeatedly. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit" (Aristotle).

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Post by Benny Bangarms » Thu Jan 11, 2007 12:38 am

Scott M. Rodell wrote: So use your lu (rollback) to deal with head shots, working to catch the attacking arm at the elbow with your elbow, & you'll easily deflect those punches, & please, keep your hands up!
so when does it make more sense to do a standard elbow-to-elbow rollback, and when is it more appropriate to cover with the palm, a la michuan?

my sense is that covering is more useful when moving in on the duifang, for example, with a diagonal step or a snake step. the elbow-to-elbow approach seems more useful when the duifang is trying to close the distance.

other thoughts?

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Post by Scott M. Rodell » Thu Jan 11, 2007 3:42 am

Benny Bangarms wrote:... when does it make more sense to do a standard elbow-to-elbow rollback, and when is it more appropriate to cover with the palm, a la michuan?...
Using either the palm or elbow to attach to the duifang's elbow is equally effective, simply use the one that is most convenient; typically one uses the palm when the duifang's strike is coming at an angle that is difficult to reach with one's elbow. In a way that's what you said, for example, when the duifang is closing, using the elbow is more convenient because it prevents one from getting jammed up with the arm pushed too close to one's torso.

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