Secrets...

[KidPeng]

Let's talk about secrets. It seems reasonable to simplify the issue into two main positions.



A: "I've worked hard to learn the things I've learned, so I won't teach just anybody, and even then, I'll keep some things to myself. I don't want people to steal my best moves, so there are some things I won't practice unless I'm alone in my bedroom. In addition, some things are too dangerous to show to anybody except a trustworthy senior student, and if they get into the wrong hands they could be misused. I have to judge the character of a student over many years before I even mention certain practice methods and techniques. Martial arts are life and death, and it's stupid to give away your hard-earned skill to those who don't deserve it."



B: "These arts are in danger of dying out, and to keep things secret in the name of tradition hurts the art more than it preserves its integrity. Even if someone sees you practicing your secret methods, not only is it unlikely they'll be able to learn the exact movements correctly, it's close to impossible that they'll figure out the internal components. You have to work hard to have the ability to use martial arts, and just because someone tells you this striking-point or that technique doesn't mean that all of a sudden you're a super-deadly menace to society. We should teach as many people as much as possible so that chinese martial arts can have some hope of regaining the status they've so pitifully lost."



Thoughts?

[josh stout]

I have been thinking about this issue allot lately. For me there are different kinds of secrets. There are secrets that keep themselves. These are movements or ideas that require extensive study just to understand. Telling people these secrets is a waste of time. The simple example is that new students are taught movements without applications. Knowing the applications would just confuse new students. There are secrets that are physically dangerous. These are typically self-defense techniques that a street fighter could use to hurt someone, and an inexperienced person could get hurt trying to use. When I am teaching these I make sure I know who is in the room and that I explain the dangers. These are the secrets that used to be very tightly guarded within a school. For me, these secrets can be shared freely with people of good character. I don't post them on the web. There are also spiritual secrets involving meditation and energy cultivation. In this area it is important to have a teacher, and not to experiment. These are not things you can figure out on your own. This can unfortunately lead to the situation found in my school where the path for advancement is not clear. Many people have been taught aspects without being given permission to share them. The best thing is to make the early levels freely available while making it clear that the higher levels can only be obtained from a particular teacher. The last area of martial arts secrets is the realm of mythology and symbolism. For intermediate to advanced students, my opinion is that the knowledge should be freely given. Unfortunately such knowledge is often grouped with high-level energy work as top-secret knowledge. For example, in my style almost no one knows that there is a number system associated with the movements and the philosophy behind them. This is not knowledge that would do a beginner any good, but is quite useful at the higher levels. The knowledge can cause little in the way of physical or energetic problems like other secrets mentioned, but it is still secret. I have verified with a Chinese practitioner of Chen style taiji that the number system is a general concept within the martial arts community with similar symbols and meanings assigned. I spent five years hunting down the pieces and verifying it, but was able to tell my class everything I had found in less than half an hour. I could have kept what I found secret because I had worked so hard to get it, but it seemed small minded and selfish to act like that.

Josh

[iglazer]

I believe there is a third kind of secret: the percevied secret. Some things just don't make any sense until the student is ready to hear them. I know from personal experience that hearing things as a beginner and then again as an intermediate student can have a very different impact. There are things witheld from beginning and intermediate students because they are simply not ready to understand them; these become perceived secrets.

[josh stout]

I thought that would be the first kind of secret I mentioned.

Josh

[iglazer]

The difference in my mind is perspective. The first point is from the teacher's point of you. My point is from the student's. As a beginner, we have all seen our teacher share something with senior students that seems very cryptic and strange; it becomes a secret in our mind.

[josh stout]

Ah, I see what you mean. There are some of those that I am still trying to figure out years later.

Josh

[josh stout]

So what do people think? Should we strive to give out knowledge as fast as students can take it, or should knowledge be guarded and given out as a reward to make it more precious?



I was quite impressed at the level of knowledge being given out by Scott at his sword seminar. Most of it would normally take many years before it would be given out. I don't even study his system, and he was willing to tell me as much as he told his own students. I definitely had the impression he wants to spread the knowledge to keep it alive. This runs the risk of making the knowledge wide and shallow, but it seems better than having the knowledge lost.

Josh

[Linda Heenan]

Simply hearing the knowledge is not enough. A student who really wants to make something part of their life will have to put in so much practise that if they actually can build it in, they have put in the time and effort that makes them worthy of having it. A student who hears something beyond their level has to grow through other stages before they can add that piece. For those reasons, secrets given out are still secrets. Hearing them and attaining them are two different things.



I have a number of things heard in this way, lodged in my mind and attracting other pieces like magnets, until the picture forms and I'm ready to build them in. It's good to never forget anything. Then when the time comes, you can ask the right questions of your teacher and learn it properly. I can't count how many times I've been told "that's for a bit further up the track". That isn't the teacher withholding knowledge in the sense of keeping secrets. It's protecting the student from being overwhelmed with things they are not ready for until a better foundation has been built.

[Kyro R. Lantsberger]

Im glad to see this discussion here. I deeply respect the opinions of people here, this forum seems to draw a quality crowd. I have a couple things I would like to add, though.



For the most part, I disagree with the idea of secrets in the martial arts. I partly hold to the reasoning in "B", from the original post, but would also add the following. Knowledge is knowledge, human beings experimenting in different places will discover the same principles. Isaac Newton could have kept Principas Matematicas "secret", but someone else would have made the same observations. I think that Allen Pittman said something in an interview to the effect that the Peruvians, the Vikings, and numerous other cultures came up with what could be defined as internal martial arts. I would define Russian Systema as an internal system of modern emergence.



Secrets also restrict the growth of the art. Take the example of the Gracies. Their advertising utilized the slogan that their Jujitsu was the "pure water". Yet it now can be seen that in some ways their practice has been left behind as others have innovated and developed the art further.



On the other hand, I do agree with some of what was said about withholding energy training and some other advanced methods, but this isnt holding things secret as much as using a guide to focusing curriculum.



I think in classical Chinese society, secrets played a role that is not appropriate in our day and age. A power situation is created around the teacher in a training environment- power to reward and withhold information. Even in an ideal situation, this does not work well in our culture. Suppose hard working students are rewarded with more information. A student devoted to the art, but not being shown the secrets may unconciously withdraw from the feeling that what he is learning isnt "it". In order to get "it", the student must then win the favor of the instructor. I think that internal training really only happens when there is a true emotional bond between instructor and student. I dont mean a friendship, but a true committment of time and energy. I think the manipulation of information damages the dynamics of this relationship.



Ive got a new puppy. She is up whining. Forgive the ramblings of a sleep deprived man.