To Fa jin a Flame

Bede Bidlack · Post by **Bede Bidlack** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 8:59 am

I have read that Yang Luchan and, more recently, Yang Jwingming can blow out candles from a distance with a fajin. I gave this a try myself and found: 1) I could extinguish a lit candle from about 18" away using a palm strike 2) exhaling from my mouth made it easier to extinguish the candle than exhaling through the nose 3) a uni-directional palm strike did not work (a strike with the hand continuing in one direction toward the target), but striking, then letting the hand spring back, worked. *

What are the possible explanations?

1) I released a wave of qi that extinguished the flame.

2) I blew out the flame with the exhale from my mouth. I tested this. When I exhaled from my mouth I did so with my mouth only slightly open and with the air passing through my teeth. Without using my hands, I tried to extinguish the flame from where I was by exhaling really hard in his fashion, but I could not blow it out.

3) The uni-directional strike did not work because at the end I tensed my muscles so as to keep my joints in tact. The tension blocked the outflow of qi.

4) The snapping of the arm worked because by allowing for the spring in the arm, I was able to issue qi.

5) I was simply moving the air surrounding the flame such that the moved air blew out the candle, no qi required. I find this quite possible, but still I think that moving that much air towards a single target reflects some focusing of energy.

In the end, I find it hard to tell whether or not I issued qi to extinguish the flame, but I am open to the possibility. While this is fun, I don't think it is a good way to train. Fa jin is designed to hit a target. What it could tell us is that a snapping palm strike is more damaging to internal organs than a uni-directional strike.

The candle demonstration I leave open for discussion, but it is this latter point that may be of most interest to the forum. Is a snapping strike more effective than a uni-directional strike? It may be untestable due to the damage you could do to a duifang, and a punching bag doesn't have internal organs.

I have had less success re-lighting the candles with a fa jin? maybe roll back?

* I have been practicing taiji quan since 1993. Before attempting this I had practiced standing meditation for 30 minutes and was well warmed up. I would not advise attempting this if you are not soft enough, nor if you have not properly warmed up.

Bede Bidlack · Post by **Bede Bidlack** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 9:02 am

For those of you using the metric system or for my classmates from Great River, 18", is 18 inches, not 18 feet. Its about a half a meter.

josh stout · Post by **josh stout** » Tue Jul 11, 2006 12:46 pm

When you hit and fa-jin with a relaxed bounce back, your palm vibrates rapidly. This allows the air your palm has been pushing in front of it to separate cleanly from your palm. I suspect the air then moves in the form of a semi-self sustaining vortex in the direction of the strike. Doing this at 18 inches would imply a pretty high level of control. Try doing it through smoke and see if you can see the air spinning around itself as it moves. A smoke ring is an example of a semi-self sustaining vortex.

The reason this wont work without the bounce back is that when the air that has been moving with your palm tries to continue in the same direction, it creates a vacuum behind it. By vibrating your palm and bouncing it back there is an effect like lifting the vortex off with a spatula. Without the bounce back all you get is some localized turbulence.

Josh

J HepworthYoung · Post by **J HepworthYoung** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 5:10 pm

With the physics as explained as above, how would this affect a contacting strike with say, a heavy bag?

Would the pullback affect the impact of the strike?

josh stout · Post by **josh stout** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:28 am

Please understand that I am speculating, but with a good background in martial arts and physics. I have tried different experiments, but nothing that would stand up to a peer review. However, I have thought allot about vibration, waves and force and how they apply to martial arts.

When you hit a bag with a normal punch, most of the energy is used to move the bag. The same would be true of hitting a person. In my style we have a punch called "crippled immortal breaks the mountain" where the punch is stopped before full extension, and there is a "fajin" that vibrates the palms. With this punch the bag does not move much if at all, but the vibrations move through the bag. I think what is happening, is that when the palms stay on the bag it causes the waves generated to reflect around inside the bag. It would take some sophisticated modeling to understand what is really going on though. Our muscles are like vibrating strings, and a body is like a bag of water. We can use relaxation to send waves down the muscles like when you send a wave down a rope sitting on the ground. The wave enters the body or bag, and depending how the hands are touching the bag, the waves travel inside it. There are far too many factors to really understand what is going on from a physics point of view without some extensive experimentation and modeling, but it is possible to figure things out the way the Chinese did. Feel what is happening, and guide the waves, and see what the result is. Remember, sending waves into a person's body can cause severe internal injuries.

Josh

J HepworthYoung · Post by **J HepworthYoung** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:35 am

Very interesting.

I admit I don't like punching heavy bags (or anything) but have enjoyed hitting one with open palm type strikes.

I have tried to extinguish flames with stikes but did not withdraw rapidly and the effect was minimal.

I do believe your explaination of the physics involved is apt.

josh stout · Post by **josh stout** » Tue Aug 01, 2006 2:18 pm

The easiest way to put out a candle with a strike is with a backhanded slap. You can either end with the fingers pointed at the candle so the vortex slips off the tips of your fingers in the direction they are pointing, or you can slap past the candle so you kind of throw the vortex at the candle flame. This sounds complicated, but it is the same thing you do when you fan something. As before, you can try this in smoke to see what is going on. The more relaxed you are, the more stable you can make the vortex and the further it will fly.

Josh

Marko Kohv · Post by **Marko Kohv** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 1:16 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_HlU9nMka8

josh stout · Post by **josh stout** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 9:59 am

That is not easy to do with a closed fist like that. You will notice that the person punches with the back of the hand and then snaps it back. Using the back of the hand increases the surface area and the snap releases the vortex. I think the punch has been modified from its normal martial positioning.

I saw a child?s toy recently that involved a 11 inch diameter tube and an elastic diaphragm at one end. By snapping the diaphragm the toy can shoot a ball of air that will put out a candle at thirty feet. This makes me think that some of the old stories may have some truth to them.

Josh

J HepworthYoung · Post by **J HepworthYoung** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 3:17 pm

I have one of those toys, it is fun.

I believe that the balll of air they shoot is more like a ring than a ball.

josh stout · Post by **josh stout** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 10:12 am

Yes a ring would make sense in terms of a stable toroidal vortex like a smoke ring. Just for fun, try getting a smoker friend to fill the toy with smoke and then shoot it. The smoke should shoot out and be trapped in the vortex just like it is in a smoke ring.

Fun.

Josh

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