Fajing on coke cans

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KungFuPanda1979
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Fajing on coke cans

Post by KungFuPanda1979 » Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:10 pm

Hi folks :D

Here's a clip I did to demostrate fajing on coke cans. The captions are a bit preachy I know, but I was hoping to educate people a bit about how power in taichi and internal martial arts in general differs from the norm. I'm sure that the majority of people didn't know that there is power involved in taichi at all!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQXZmp2PsUo

I know its a bit of shameless showing-off, but I'm not saying that I'm the best in the world and am open to constructive critiques which will hopefully get me closer to that. Enjoy!

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Re: Fajing on coke cans

Post by J HepworthYoung » Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:55 am

Neat!
I looked up the amount of force this would take and it is over 100lbs of pressure.

I've been trying to get a friend to purchase some sensors that measure kinetic forces to play around with various strikes.

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Re: Fajing on coke cans

Post by KungFuPanda1979 » Fri Jan 13, 2012 12:08 am

I would love the opportunity to work with a sensor and see how much force my strikes actually impart, like they do on those Fight Science documentaries. Unfortuneatly, those shows don't really pick the best representatives of their styles, more like guys whom they have contact with who'll look good on camera. Except for the MMA one, those guys don't exactly hide away in the forests or anything.

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Re: Fajing on coke cans

Post by Scott M. Rodell » Tue Jan 24, 2012 9:04 am

KungFuPanda1979 wrote:... a clip I did to demostrate fajing on coke cans...

I know its a bit of shameless showing-off...
I like it, simple & to the point, not preachy at all... Honestly, we need to do all we can to rescue taijiquan from those who are reducing it to nothing more than therapeutic exercise for old people. To do that, we need to clearly demonstrate that taijiquan is a practical martial art. Keep it up brother...

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One Serious Question.

Post by Scott M. Rodell » Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:46 am

I have one serious question for practitioners on taijiquan. Are we going to continue to allow those who lack any real martial skill continue to define our art?

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Re: Fajing on coke cans

Post by J HepworthYoung » Tue Jan 31, 2012 6:01 pm

Scott M. Rodell wrote:I have one serious question for practitioners on taijiquan. Are we going to continue to allow those who lack any real martial skill continue to define our art?
Absolutely not, though they are so prominent that it is no easy task.

The other day I was at a bookstore, I found a dozen books on taijiquan in the health and fitness section and two in the martial arts section. As for the martial aspects of the art, the books in the fitness section contained scarcely more than a passing mention of them as if they were some antiquated and trivial aspect of the art.

A lot of people are selling the art as a metaphysical practice in some new age manner, usually this form of the art has no push hands, but when it does people approach it as if it is not martial in nature and never seem to take it to a level where they practice free fighting using the methods.

Sadly one famous teacher is often quoted as saying that you don't even need push hands, the idea being that if you just do the form enough you will "get it" and be able to use it in a martial way. I've met people who claim to be teachers who say not to do push hands at all.

My teacher has had hundreds of people interested in the art for health purposes alone, they have no interest in the martial side of it. A lot of people don't even have faith in the art and many with decades of experience complain that they must be missing some secret teaching or aspect because they cannot use it in a martial way, and yet they have never even practiced using the art with a duifang who is throwing real punches at a fast speed and it never even occurs to them that such forms of practice are important to the art.

For those who care about the martial aspects of the art the situation can be incredibly frustrating.
There are a lot of tricky aspects to the situation, some teach external applications with no understanding of the 8 energies, some sell the art as if it is based on some magic power like the force in Star Wars. Many practice for health alone and do not even have an interest or a conception of the art as martial. Some teach applications concepts without practicing them and then claim they the know the martial side of it, which is like hearing an orchestral work and then claiming to be a composer or a musician without ever practicing to play music.

Some even say that all the taiji out there is fake, that Cheng-fu was terrible and that the real stuff is a secret taught only to and by chauffeurs in Australia... or something like that.

A lot of teachers even go so far as to say that one cannot learn the martial side of it without ten to thirty years of practice. Many forms of practice are so low impact and easy that it is not a suprise that those who practice them have virtually zero martial skill.

Very few young people take the art seriously and often those that do have a very hard time finding a decent teacher. I have seen people try to teach the art having never learned from a teacher hands on, they read a couple of books, buy a DVD and then start teaching! These bad examples claim the art is martial and yet are as much a detriment to the reputation of it (as martial) as anything else is, including those who teach zero applications and martial methods.

I have almost given up on the idea that the world will ever come to realize taijiquan for what it is, an amazing and unique martial art.

I know a man who wanted to use his style of 'taijiquan' (Australian chauffeur death touch style) in the ring against MMA style martial arts typical of today. He scoffed at the idea that he should train with or against MMA people using taijiquan against them, his teacher told him not to practice against the martial art he would face... needless to say he lost and was totally unprepared.

I have also seen people teach applications that do not work, a friend of mine would be taught something in class, which worked with his fellow students, and then come to train with me and it would not work at all, and when he went back to class and the fellow students tried it on him it wouldn't work either.

What a complex and frustrating situation for those who enjoy taijiquan as a martial art.

I don't know what to do other than continue to practice.

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Re: Fajing on coke cans

Post by KungFuPanda1979 » Fri Feb 03, 2012 8:08 pm

Thanks J & Scott,
I think the degradation of ALL Martial Arts into passtimes for sports and health started long ago. The Martial Arts world (JianWu) in the past was full of hatred and vengence, that people like Huo Yuen Jia wanted the fighting to stop amoungst Martial Artists. He even called his foundation the JinWu 'Atheletics' (TiYu) Association, to encourage the spirit of sportsmanship. I honestly think that our masters worked towards our current situation in a way, as they valued peace and fellowship above all else. But what they did not forsee are these 'new' martial arts popping up that wanted to claim superiority above all. But all of my elders are not concerned about them at all, and think that it is not worth the effort to entertain these barbarians. They just ignore the slights and insults leveled at traditional martial artists and are only concerned with training their own students. What they also don't realise, is that if they don't stand up against this trend, there will be NO STUDENTS to train, and the quality of the teachings passed down would degrade as well.

I myself did recently try to train with MMA people, as I thought they would be a lot more down to earth then others when it comes to practicality... boy was I wrong.

They have absolutely no concept of protecting vital areas like their eyes, throat, groin or the back of their heads. Whenever I point out their vulnerability when we practise certain positions, take downs and locks, I kept getting the lecture that I can't hit them there because I'll get disqualified in competition. I told the trainer that I will never compete in MMA and am here to practise with self defence in mind. He straight up told me that what they are doing there is for the MMA sport, not street fighting or self defence, he understands that most of what they practise in MMA grappling would not work in real combat, and that if that was what I wanted to do then this is not the class for it.
He tried to tell me that when a punch comes my way, I should not try to deflect it but just hold my hands against my head like a boxer does. I disagreed and he tried to show me the error of my concept with a unannounced 1-2 combo. I reacted out of instinct and almost kicked him in the groin during the second deflection (like we do in ZhuoYou DengJiao). He gave me the lecture again and said that if someone was faster, then I would not be able to deflect them all. I said that even putting your fists to your forehead is still not guranteed protection. He put his arms up and told me to try and hit him. So I did enough of a palm strike on his fist so he can feel the force traveling to his head. He said that "yes that would hurt, but didn't do real damage". I thought if I really tried, I would give him whiplash or a contusion, but I didn't want to go that far, so I just let the argument slide.
So the Taichi guy was the one that was told off by the MMA guy for being too rough.

Go figure
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Last edited by KungFuPanda1979 on Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Fajing on coke cans

Post by J HepworthYoung » Sun Feb 05, 2012 10:10 pm

my experience has been quite similar with many non-taiji styles and schools

it is lovely to read about

once at a local club i was asked to give a short explanation of principals of taiji to some people from a local jujitsu club, it turns out nearly everything i said broke one of their major rules. The ideas of only using as much force as you need, not committing the momentum (blindly) and not using force against force were all contrary to their teachings

sadly however one of our club teachers joined their club too and proceeded to try to integrate the two teachings, he has never had hands on instruction in taiji and does not really understand the energies, so when he teaches an application he teaches jujitsu style energies... he learned taiji from Cheng Mang Chings book and is now a teacher... :roll: it bothers me that he teaches actually, but i have not said anything, i just quit the club. My teacher and I were founding members but this fellow has become convinced that he does taiji and can teach it, so we just stand back and let the magic happen.

I

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Re: Fajing on coke cans

Post by KungFuPanda1979 » Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:19 am

That is not an uncommon situation J, and did you and your instructor try to show him what proper taichi jing is like? If so, how did he react to that?
I have seen quite a few kungfu instructors pickup taichi teaching to jump on the band wagon, and when they show applications, you can clearly see they are just using the same FORCE as their original style, but with taichi movements. Look up Master Wong on youtube.

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Re: Fajing on coke cans

Post by J HepworthYoung » Tue Feb 07, 2012 1:33 am

]
KungFuPanda1979 wrote:That is not an uncommon situation J, and did you and your instructor try to show him what proper taichi jing is like?
No. Although we did do some push hands and have done a lot of form in front of him. The professor did comment to the effect that our motions were whole body and fluid but this caused a problem. The problem was that he taught that first you learn the forms postures poorly, such as not moving your body via the waist, moving your hands and arms by themselves etc, and that eventually if you do this enough you will become more fluid and move as a single unit. A few years down the line he is pretty good at doing it bad, so to speak.

My teacher didn't care to correct him in any regard.

Once the professor was demonstrating an application on me. He had my right arm twisted up behind my back and had me bent over and was saying he could hold me in place or hurt me. I moved a little and he tightened his twist and grip with his force. I then used taiji energy to stand up and let my arm slide right out of his grip as he stammered, I remained stuck to him as I turned to face him, the arm that was pinned behind me now attached in Peng posture to him. My teacher saw the whole thing, as did a couple of other students. My teacher commented that it seemed to frustrate, even anger the professor and it is true, the situation seemed rather tense for a moment. However the point had been made. I noted that if he knew the right energies I never could have escaped the professor. A student asked me how I had done it, I told him that there were two parts to it, the first was that the professor didn't know what he was doing, the second was that my escape was via my intent, I intended to escape, I didn't even have to try to do it, I just used listening jing and the way out was simple, the professor gave me a way out when he tightened my arm trying to twist it into a painful submission.

At one point several of the elderly people in the club who were attending commented to me that they wished I would teach instead of the professor. I do not however have any skill in teaching and am not patient or mature enough to try and teach. One thing that can be said about the professor is that he is highly enthusiastic and competitive. Showing him the true jing just reinforced his bad habits of using force on force and if he does not understand listening jing, Peng Jing or Lu... then what is the point of showing him Fa-jing? Let alone the other basic energies.

I knew another man who had a white crane background, who was paid for a time to teach taijiquan. He is a highly skilled martial artist, but has very little understanding of taijiquan. He says that push hands is bad and not to do it. However ven as he held a job at a university teaching taijiquan he was searching for others to teach. This is what my teacher is doing at present, attempting to teach taiji to college kids trying to pick up an easy credit... in a single semester. My close friend and training partner visited his class last semester right near the end of the semester, we both did some basic push hands with half the class. Needless to say the conveyor belt like higher educational system is not a good place to teach or learn taijiquan.

Ironically my teacher introduced us both as teachers to the class, however when ever I was asked if I taught I replied that I did not, nor was I fit to do so. However my friend is an instructor in his system. I can attend these classes and even call myself an assistant, but don't think it is a good setting to do more than fish for devoted pupils, though I could never teach them.
I have seen quite a few kungfu instructors pickup taichi teaching to jump on the band wagon, and when they show applications, you can clearly see they are just using the same FORCE as their original style, but with taichi movements.
This seems to be what happens when people learn form alone. And I must admit, it is easy to do this way, the external postures do work well with external jing and lots of tension, but there is virtually no stick/listen/follow jing/skill in these methods and the strikes are not as amazing when done with hard force as they are when done with soft force.

I admit, when I began I was so confused about the energies and postures. Even with my teacher saying I was getting better I felt like I was making no progress. Then I started working with a friend in a different system and found myself happy with what I had been taught, it worked and it worked well, I became a true believer in Yang Style taijiquan. I doubt I will ever master it, but I doubt I will ever give it up.

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Re: Fajing on coke cans

Post by tjqinterest » Wed Feb 08, 2012 6:30 am

KungFuPanda1979 wrote:I thought if I really tried, I would give him whiplash or a contusion, but I didn't want to go that far, so I just let the argument slide.
What makes you think that you could really do it in competition or in real self-defence situation?

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Re: Fajing on coke cans

Post by J HepworthYoung » Wed Feb 08, 2012 2:31 pm

tjqinterest wrote:
KungFuPanda1979 wrote:I thought if I really tried, I would give him whiplash or a contusion, but I didn't want to go that far, so I just let the argument slide.
What makes you think that you could really do it in competition or in real self-defence situation?
That is a good question.
It does beg the question though; why not?

Clearly there will always be someone with more skill, and likewise there will always be someone with less skill.
It seems to me that general statements and assumptions are overly simple.

a real self-defense situation for example could be any number of things, i've been in and have seen many fights in my life and they were all different, there is no typical self defense situation or scenario... is there?

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Re: Fajing on coke cans

Post by KungFuPanda1979 » Thu Feb 09, 2012 10:52 pm

tjqinterest wrote:
What makes you think that you could really do it in competition or in real self-defence situation?
I was trying to put forward my point to that trainer that a boxing hands up guard is not impenetrable, and he put his hands up challenging me to do it. I am not the strongest guy in the world, and there are many people who can just swing through a boxer's guard like a bowling ball to pins. In combat if the attacker goes on the defense and huddles up with that guard, I would go around it and use kicks to the knees or elbows to the side or back of the head. I cannot be sure what I will do, because it would depend on what happens at the time.

If you're in Australia (hopefully the east coast) I would be more then happy to exchange knowledge with you.

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Re: Fajing on coke cans

Post by tjqinterest » Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:50 am

J HepworthYoung wrote:general statements and assumptions are overly simple
That is right.

We can belive that something does not exist if we have not seen it or belive that something does exist until it non-existance has been proven.
Both attitudes can be valuable.

It`s sad that these masters who really have skill, do not want to face professional MMA fighters.

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Re: Fajing on coke cans

Post by KungFuPanda1979 » Fri Feb 10, 2012 6:05 am

tjqinterest wrote:
It`s sad that these masters who really have skill, do not want to face professional MMA fighters.
Real masters know exactly what they are capable of and do not feel like they have to prove anything to anyone else. Those who truely understands combat will know their value. Take Luke Holloway for example, he teaches close quarter no holds barred combat;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cqe5yaYF ... AAAAAAAbAA

But he still pays respect and learns from internal style masters;

http://www.youtube.com/user/TeamWuJin?f ... -3G6nnf-ic

Cheers
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