importing a sword to china

[Antony Wood]

Hello!

Anyone here know the current laws about importing a sword into mainland China? I am having a custom Dadao made in Australia, and want to import it to my home here in Shanghai. Anyone have any experience importing into China? I'd greatly appreciate any help!

Thanks,

Antony Wood

[Scott M. Rodell]

I haven't sent anything into Mainland for some time & the truth is, the rules change day to day anyway without any apparent reason or sense. To avoid any potential problems, have you considered going to some one like QIng Zhong to have a custom sword made? That would avoid any potential customs problems...

[Antony Wood]

Hello!

Thank you for your response:) Yes, its very difficult to know what to do when the laws change so frequently, and are so (to me) unclear..

I was going to have a custom sword made by Zheng Wu forge (a custom dadao) but it was too expensive for me so I went with a sword maker from Austrailia (Brendan Olszowy).

I wouldnt worry if I was travelling with it and could disguise it as a wushu sword and check it through special luggage on the plane, but shipping worries me. As it stands, I may ship it to the USA to my parents and pick it up later..

So I'm still searching for a clear answer, but just to be safe I will probably go with the USA plan..

Thanks again for replying!

Best Wishes,

Antony

[Scott M. Rodell]

... Yes, its very difficult to know what to do when the laws change so frequently, and are so (to me) unclear... still searching for a clear answer, but just to be safe I will probably go with the USA plan..

I'm afraid you'll never get a clear answer & if you did, it could change in an instant, as you likely know, that's China.

Not to trying to ruin Olszowy's sale, but have you thought about getting your dadao directly from Hanwei in China? They are based in Dalian & make a dadao, see-
http://www.cashanwei.com/product_details.asp?id=SH1012
That way the shipping would all be internal to China.

[Nik]

Shouldn't it be possible to get a real, moderately antique dadao in China ? When you're already there, it should even be less or same price as a new custom one.

[Graham Cave]

Another maker to consider in China would be Zhisword - they are happy to do custom orders and can be very easy to deal with. In fact, I have a custom jian that they made for me and I'm more than pleased with it, it's a great sword.

Recently, I sent one of my wooden jian to a customer in Shanghai and was advised to label the box 'Wushu sports equipment' because even a wooden sword could be liable to be stopped by Chinese Customs.

[Scott M. Rodell]

... consider ... zhisword... they are happy to do custom orders ... easy to deal with... I have a custom jian that they made for me... I'm... pleased with it...

Always interested in hearing about new sword companies, but as I flipped thru the pages of zhisword's site, I was kind of surprised you would recommend them. Most of the sword like like the stuff you see sold in trinket shop as wall hangers. To be fair they are priced accordingly, but how did you find the quality of the steel? I'm always concerned about practitioners using swords that are too soft or have tang that are too thin & will break. My experience with low end swords is that they are not up to serious training, including form work & that student often just look at the price & don't carefully delineate between decorative sword like object & true sword. I'm not saying this is the case with zhisword, but that I'd like your opinion...

In the meantime, I've written Zhisword to requesting they submit a dao or jian for product testing...

[B.Ko]

I've seen pictures of Zhi Sword tangs on Sword Buyer's Guide Forum. Classic Rat tail tang. I would avoid them.

[Graham Cave]

Always interested in hearing about new sword companies, but as I flipped thru the pages of zhisword's site, I was kind of surprised you would recommend them. Most of the sword like like the stuff you see sold in trinket shop as wall hangers.

They do indeed produce a lot of wallhangers and wushu swords but of course, that doesn't mean that can't make a good sword. What made me curious about Zhisword was that I'd read some good reports from J-sword collectors being very happy with the products and custom service....so I thought that I would put prejudice aside and give them a go.

To be fair they are priced accordingly, but how did you find the quality of the steel? I'm always concerned about practitioners using swords that are too soft or have tang that are too thin & will break. My experience with low end swords is that they are not up to serious training, including form work & that student often just look at the price & don't carefully delineate between decorative sword like object & true sword. I'm not saying this is the case with zhisword, but that I'd like your opinion...

Thanks! I hope this answers your questions......
I made sure to specify that I wanted a sword for cutting. Here is a pic of the Zhisword next to a Huanuo jian:


Construction...........folded sanmei
Blade length ...........680 mm
Blade width ............33mm at the forte to 25mm at the tip
Blade thickness .......8.5mm at the forte to 4.25mm at the tip
Weight..................855g
pob.....................150mm

I've tested the hardness of the edge in comparison to my antique blades, and it is just the same - about 53 HRC using my testing files. The blade has a slight curvature to the facets. Not exactly clamshell, but certainly not flat. I'm ok with that, and the clamshell shape will automatically become more pronounced as I re-sharpen it. The edge is very sharp and it cuts like a dream. It has no problem at all going through 3/8" green cherry and there were no nicks or scratches to the blade after cutting the wood. I've not yet tried cutting anything thicker.

Heavy cast brass fittings:

and the back of the suspension fittings:

The scabbard is of black sandalwood and lined with a neutral wood to protect the blade. The hilt fittings are slightly on the large side and the guard is of the modern pattern, but that doesn't detract from the handling. The hilt is nice and solid, but the wrap was too loose to be usable and has to be replaced........not a problem.

I've seen pictures of Zhi Sword tangs on Sword Buyer's Guide Forum. Classic Rat tail tang. I would avoid them.

Tangs:

Top is Huanuo, middle is Qing Zhong, Bottom is Zhisword.
The Zhisword tang could be a slightly larger but it is not a problem for me because I don't indulge in heavy duty cutting with jian.....Zhisword were also careful to warn me not to use it for violent cutting.

[This thread was originally about dadao, and of course tang width is not usually an issue with dadao..... because most dadao grips are constructed with wooden scales riveted to a tang that is the full width of the grip.]

My Zhisword handles exactly as I like it, easily manoeuvrable and with enough forward momentum for cutting. Naturally, there are a few things that I think could be improved, but they are mostly cosmetic, and overall, I'm very happy with the feel and performance of this sword.

In the meantime, I've written Zhisword to requesting they submit a dao or jian for product testing...

I'll be very interested to see how that pans out.......

[jonpalombi]

Thanks Graham, for the informative pics!

I agree with Laoshi about most of their sword-like objects. That being said, you have to admire a company that actually manufactures 140 varieties of jian!!! Too bad most of them are un-historically designed monstrosities. Several years ago, I bought one of Zhi Sword's Han Dynasty Jians (off of eBay for $200.00 & free shipping). I was really curious about their quality, given that I was not about to invest so much $$$ in the original, Zheng Wu version, regardless of their quality. Never in a million years, did I expect to use it for cutting practice... rather, I just picked it up as an attractive collectible. The folded steel is a homogeneous mix of high-carbon & low-carbon steels, with no apparent differential hardening. The blade geometry is really more of a knife-edge and I suspect it was intended as an art object/reproduction, despite how sharp the edge is. In fact, I had communicated with them about the type of steel being used, prior to it's purchase and they assured me the steel was very hard (and/or brittle?). However, they warned me against cutting with it. At the time, they recommended one of their many Japanese-style katanas, were I interested in actual cutting practice.

Even so, times change and it's great to see they are willing to craft more traditionally designed swords, with promising potential for serious cutting practice. I too, am eager to know if they would send examples to Laoshi for the necessary field-testing. That being said... for my money, the new Hanwei Rodell Cutting Jian is first on my list of acquisitions. I cannot believe the quality and affordability of this exciting new weapon! While I did get to handle one in December, at our 11th New England Area Chinese Swordsmanship Seminar with Sifu Rodell, I didn't get a chance to cut with it (Vermont + December= snow). I found it remarkably well-made, solid, well-balanced and possessing a subtle beauty that is historically authentic. Yet another step has boldly been taken, in the Renaissance of genuine Chinese swordsmanship practice. Laoshi, I salute the integrity of your vision and the resulting accomplishment!

BTW, Graham's masterful venture in the realm of crafting top-notch wooden jians, parallels this effort and I also salute him for his sheer artistic genius, coupled with his strict, scientific methodology. Soon, we will all be able to have equally fine, wooden dao swords, as Graham has begun the task of designing a TCSL approved, fighting dao. These are exciting times for CSA enthusiasts, indeed!!! Thank you guys, we are all indebted to your unswerving devotion and deep conviction to historical authenticity.

Be well and practice often, Jon Palombi

[Scott M. Rodell]

Dear Graham,

Thanks for such a through response. I would say your comments point out how contemporary consumers of modern swords have to read & ask questions carefully.

They do indeed produce a lot of wallhangers and wushu swords but of course, that doesn't mean that can't make a good sword. What made me curious about Zhisword was that I'd read some good reports from J-sword collectors being very happy with the products and custom service...

There in lies the problem that causes me some concern. Many companies sell a variety of qualities of swords. Some are pure decorative wall hangers, some are for re-enactors, sturdy enough to be carried around, but not mean to used as practical blunt sparring weapons, & real swords that can be used for cutting. Naturally, these different types are all commingled in the same catalogs & websites of said companies. It is up to the purchaser to make sure they read everything in the description of anything they buy & follow up with questions before making a purchase. And then to properly test any sword before beginning a regular test cutting routine with any sword.

... has no problem at all going through 3/8" green cherry and there were no nicks or scratches to the blade after cutting the wood. I've not yet tried cutting anything thicker... The Zhisword tang could be a slightly larger but it is not a problem for me because I don't indulge in heavy duty cutting with jian.....Zhisword were also careful to warn me not to use it for violent cutting.

That warning from Zhisword gives me pause for concern... In my mind, a sword is either good for test cutting or not. If it is good for "some" test cutting, but not all, the practitioner is being set up for a problem down the road, because sooner or later, some one is going to cut something beyond the prescribed limit & be hurt, & sword injuries are no joke. My hope is that these kinds of conversations will bring all forges in line, test cutting is still rather newly reborn in CHinese Swordsmanship & many forges have to catch up & new practitioners need to be properly educated...

[Graham Cave]

That warning from Zhisword gives me pause for concern... In my mind, a sword is either good for test cutting or not. If it is good for "some" test cutting, but not all, the practitioner is being set up for a problem down the road, because sooner or later, some one is going to cut something beyond the prescribed limit & be hurt, & sword injuries are no joke. My hope is that these kinds of conversations will bring all forges in line, test cutting is still rather newly reborn in CHinese Swordsmanship & many forges have to catch up & new practitioners need to be properly educated...

I'm not unduly worried. All metal tools have their limitations..........and one has to be familiar with the limitations of any tool and work within those parameters. This sword appears to be structurally strong enough for the type of cutting I will be doing and I will, of course, regularly take the sword apart to check the tang for any signs of fatigue. The difficulty here, as you point out, is that inexperienced practitioners will not necessarily be capable of taking a sword apart and assessing its capabilities. What is needed, is independent assessment. My observations are no substitute for your expert testing and appraisal, so I do hope that Zhisword manage to sort you one for testing.

The folded steel is a homogeneous mix of high-carbon & low-carbon steels, with no apparent differential hardening. The blade geometry is really more of a knife-edge and I suspect it was intended as an art object/reproduction, despite how sharp the edge is. In fact, I had communicated with them about the type of steel being used, prior to it's purchase and they assured me the steel was very hard (and/or brittle?). However, they warned me against cutting with it.

My Zhisword jian is folded sanmei which is different from their folded steel.

That being said... for my money, the new Hanwei Rodell Cutting Jian is first on my list of acquisitions. I cannot believe the quality and affordability of this exciting new weapon! While I did get to handle one in December, at our 11th New England Area Chinese Swordsmanship Seminar with Sifu Rodell, I didn't get a chance to cut with it (Vermont + December= snow). I found it remarkably well-made, solid, well-balanced and possessing a subtle beauty that is historically authentic. Yet another step has boldly been taken, in the Renaissance of genuine Chinese swordsmanship practice. Laoshi, I salute the integrity of your vision and the resulting accomplishment!

The Hanwei Rodell Cutting Jian is unquestionably, a superb and historically authentic sword.......and (very importantly, as we've just discussed) there are no doubts about its suitability for test cutting.

BTW, Graham's masterful venture in the realm of crafting top-notch wooden jians, parallels this effort and I also salute him for his sheer artistic genius, coupled with his strict, scientific methodology. Soon, we will all be able to have equally fine, wooden dao swords, as Graham has begun the task of designing a TCSL approved, fighting dao.

Thanks Jon....I'll get the dao sorted this year, I promise!

[Nik]

Are you sure that this is really SANMEI and pattern welded, and not a monosteel with the new China patented water transfer print of a nice pattern ? I have bought several swords for testing purposes and comparison, and as it turned out, EVERY sword with a truely nice pattern wasn't folded steel but had the pattern printed onto the surface with a paint or acid. I could easily wash it off with soap or polish it off with toothpaste. And the look even fooled experts at first, who swore stone and bone (german saying ) that it was real damascus steel. Then I wanted to bring out the pattern a bit more shining, and, there it went down the drain, leaving only a grey stain in the water ...

Regarding the tang, it's not only the size. It's the size, the steel quality, the edge, the hardening (not seldomly, the tang itself was not hardened at all) and heat treatment (tempered or not ?), and the exact geometry, if it is prone to developing tears or not. It should be next to impossible to make a properly hardened tang of a quality steel shear off with just human force.

BTW, regarding "authentic". AFAIK, I cannot remember that the thread back in the 90s on swordforum which discussed the average size, weight and POB mentioned something like "POB always 30% of blade length". It was flat out "6 inch and nothing else", for full size. Otherwise you get an incredibly topheavy feeling sword when it's especially long, and you definetly would not like that. So, 150mm seems pretty authentic (seeing 6" flat = 152,4mm), although I prefer a slightly longer one (slightly = give a couple of mm, not inches). I had once in the day like 30 years ago a truly authentic masterpiece (looking a bit like the "Cimo" Bonnie Liao posted once) in my hands, and I remember it like light (in the 660-700g category from comparing my memory to today) but very slightly more top forward (like 6.5 inch). I am still not able to exactly reproduce that regarding how it moved, but that is not strange since a couple of mm's on POB and grip length, and a couple of grams already make things feel "different".
As far as I know, this fitting style they sometimes call "qianlong" is not "modern". I remember seeing almost the same fittings on a painting / tapestry of a general, although I never found that pic again. It may have slightly modified / exaggerated sizes regarding the quillons etc.

Are you sure it's the cutting edge that has 53 HRC, both on original and remake ? That appears a bit low. I would expect more the spine and low-hardened parts being in that range (48-52), and the edge starting at 56, going up into the 62 HRC range. The latter is hard to do as you will lose quite a couple of samples until you succeed. 54 HRC is the value used for contemporary monosteel military sabers, semi-mass-produced in Solingen since the 1900s.

[Graham Cave]

Are you sure that this is really SANMEI and pattern welded, and not a monosteel with the new China patented water transfer print of a nice pattern ? I have bought several swords for testing purposes and comparison, and as it turned out, EVERY sword with a truely nice pattern wasn't folded steel but had the pattern printed onto the surface with a paint or acid. I could easily wash it off with soap or polish it off with toothpaste. And the look even fooled experts at first, who swore stone and bone (german saying ) that it was real damascus steel. Then I wanted to bring out the pattern a bit more shining, and, there it went down the drain, leaving only a grey stain in the water ...

Yes, I can tell the difference.

Regarding the tang, it's not only the size. It's the size, the steel quality, the edge, the hardening (not seldomly, the tang itself was not hardened at all) and heat treatment (tempered or not ?), and the exact geometry, if it is prone to developing tears or not. It should be next to impossible to make a properly hardened tang of a quality steel shear off with just human force.

If the hilt of a cutting sword is held together by nuts rather than a peened tang, then it is always worth taking it apart regularly to check for signs of fatigue.

BTW, regarding "authentic". AFAIK, I cannot remember that the thread back in the 90s on swordforum which discussed the average size, weight and POB mentioned something like "POB always 30% of blade length". It was flat out "6 inch and nothing else", for full size. Otherwise you get an incredibly topheavy feeling sword when it's especially long, and you definetly would not like that. So, 150mm seems pretty authentic (seeing 6" flat = 152,4mm), although I prefer a slightly longer one (slightly = give a couple of mm, not inches). I had once in the day like 30 years ago a truly authentic masterpiece (looking a bit like the "Cimo" Bonnie Liao posted once) in my hands, and I remember it like light (in the 660-700g category from comparing my memory to today) but very slightly more top forward (like 6.5 inch). I am still not able to exactly reproduce that regarding how it moved, but that is not strange since a couple of mm's on POB and grip length, and a couple of grams already make things feel "different".

pob is only a rough indicator of how a sword will feel. The balance and handling of my Zhisword is just what I wanted to be.

As far as I know, this fitting style they sometimes call "qianlong" is not "modern". I remember seeing almost the same fittings on a painting / tapestry of a general, although I never found that pic again. It may have slightly modified / exaggerated sizes regarding the quillons etc.

I've not seen this exact same pattern on an antique jian, only on modern reproductions. Also, the modelling of the decoration does not match with the rest of the fittings. This indicates that it is a marriage of parts rather than a integrated set. However, given the vagaries of Chinese manufacture (historically speaking) this does not seem wholly inappropriate.

Are you sure it's the cutting edge that has 53 HRC, both on original and remake ? That appears a bit low. I would expect more the spine and low-hardened parts being in that range (48-52), and the edge starting at 56, going up into the 62 HRC range. The latter is hard to do as you will lose quite a couple of samples until you succeed. 54 HRC is the value used for contemporary monosteel military sabers, semi-mass-produced in Solingen since the 1900s.

Perhaps my testing files haven't been calibrated properly. However, the important thing to note is that the hardness of the Zhisword is exactly the same as a number of my antiques that have seen active combat. Therefore, I would conclude that the hardness of my Zhisword blade is historically accurate.....and for me, that is an important factor.

[Graham Cave]

If the hilt of a cutting sword is held together by nuts rather than a peened tang, then it is always worth taking it apart regularly to check for signs of fatigue.

I must point out that no-one should attempt to disassemble and reassemble a hilt unless competent to do so. Disassembly is not always straightforward, and therefore potentially dangerous. Failure to put a sword back correctly can lead to serious accidents when cutting. If in doubt,seek advice.