The basic swing in 2 hand jian
Moderator:Scott M. Rodell
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Am I right to assume that for the Chinese longsword, the general concept of "main hand push, off and pull" applies as it would in European longsword?
The hilts on Chinese longswords seem longer on average than the European longswords.
The hilts on Chinese longswords seem longer on average than the European longswords.
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Please cross reference with the threads:
Big knife 大刀 grip positions?
viewtopic.php?t=576&highlight=two+hande ... ou+miaodao
Junzi Jian, Book on Shuangshoujian
viewtopic.php?t=404
Big knife 大刀 grip positions?
viewtopic.php?t=576&highlight=two+hande ... ou+miaodao
Junzi Jian, Book on Shuangshoujian
viewtopic.php?t=404
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Sorry about that--I should have been a bit more specific since I was under the impression that the push-pull terminology was universal across kendo, longsword, katana, etc..
Or may be it is, it's just that I didn't elaborate enough
Quoting Linda from the other thread,
"Longsword, as for Katana, uses one hand as a fulcrum and the other in push and pull movements. The leverage created, generates power. My friend also mentioned that there is better agility in a cross hand grip if the hands are closer together, thus crossing the arms at the wrists, rather than the elbows."
I'm sorry I can't be more specific than her fulcrum-push/pull description for leverage.
There is a longsword dvd that I have that describes it briefly.
In the dvd, the hilt is maybe 10-12 inches long and the hands are held apart.
The quote from the dvd:
"The left hand is responsible for power generation, whereas the sword's grip is used for leverage with the right hand taking the lead."
I see that in shuangshou jian forms the grip switches from hands-apart to hands-together, so I guess I'm asking about swings made with the hands apart?
Thanks again!
Or may be it is, it's just that I didn't elaborate enough
Quoting Linda from the other thread,
"Longsword, as for Katana, uses one hand as a fulcrum and the other in push and pull movements. The leverage created, generates power. My friend also mentioned that there is better agility in a cross hand grip if the hands are closer together, thus crossing the arms at the wrists, rather than the elbows."
I'm sorry I can't be more specific than her fulcrum-push/pull description for leverage.
There is a longsword dvd that I have that describes it briefly.
In the dvd, the hilt is maybe 10-12 inches long and the hands are held apart.
The quote from the dvd:
"The left hand is responsible for power generation, whereas the sword's grip is used for leverage with the right hand taking the lead."
I see that in shuangshou jian forms the grip switches from hands-apart to hands-together, so I guess I'm asking about swings made with the hands apart?
Thanks again!
Since it seems that this question wasn't answered, let me clarify some points about longsword cuts.
I have practiced Liechtenauer longsword, which is, as I understand it, a broad category of the German longsword school deriving from the lineage of Johannes Liechtenauer. Specifically, I've practiced a relatively late-period version of this, although I consider myself a beginner.
In this system, you do in fact use the push/pull method, which is to say that, for right-handed swordsmen, the left hand pulls back to lever the sword around the right hand. The "push" comes into play because the right hand is not stationary, but usually moving forward during a cut. The left hand is thus always drawing an arc around the right hand, an arc which will be much larger at the point of the sword. It is not wrong that the left hand generates more power than the right hand, but it is important to keep in mind that power is primarily generated through the feet, not the hands.
In the Liechtenauer system that I studied, this leveraging, and thus the cut, occurs only after the hands come forward into a "universal cutting position" with the sword extended pommel-first. From there, one can cut from any direction. This position is not usually a place to stop, but rather one which all cuts in the system pass through.
Many of the grips that I used were quite long. They usually weren't less than 10 inches, and there was one which (I'm guessing) was more like 13. We were instructed to keep our hands very far apart, with one hand at the hilt and the other hand at the pommel. I have had other teachers advocate otherwise, but I'm not confident that this was grounded in historical reality. It seems to be that the longer the grip, the more difference that hand placement makes. But for shorter grips, it shouldn't make a big difference.
As for Linda Heenan's friend, I think they may have been exaggerating about crossing the arms at the elbows. The difference is more like crossing at the wrist vs. crossing at the lower forearm. Although I wouldn't be surprised if there was a slight difference in agility, I haven't noticed any. For guards in which the arms are crossed, it may help to open the back hand, only lightly gripping the sword, so that the hand isn't forced to rotate as far.
I practiced Kenjutsu for a short time, and experienced similar principles. The push/pull effect was there, although the grips on our bokken were not long enough to pose much question about placement of the hands. I believe that Japanese systems tend more towards keeping the hands apart, but I am certainly no expert on that subject.
As for the presence of the push/pull motion in Chinese swordsmanship, it appears to me that Scott Rodell employs the principle in his video Rediscovering the Chinese Long Sword, particularly in the examples of Kan and Pi cuts. I don't know if the principle is expressed in the same way to students, but the effects seem to be similar.
Feel the difference in your hands: If your back hand is not leveraging the weapon, what is it doing? Supporting weight? As far as I can tell, it seems that any two-handed strike in which the tip travels in an arc(in relation to the hands), the left hand should be leveraging the sword. This would logically apply to all styles. However, I'd be interested to know if Chinese swordsmanship might offer a way to refine this statement.
I have practiced Liechtenauer longsword, which is, as I understand it, a broad category of the German longsword school deriving from the lineage of Johannes Liechtenauer. Specifically, I've practiced a relatively late-period version of this, although I consider myself a beginner.
In this system, you do in fact use the push/pull method, which is to say that, for right-handed swordsmen, the left hand pulls back to lever the sword around the right hand. The "push" comes into play because the right hand is not stationary, but usually moving forward during a cut. The left hand is thus always drawing an arc around the right hand, an arc which will be much larger at the point of the sword. It is not wrong that the left hand generates more power than the right hand, but it is important to keep in mind that power is primarily generated through the feet, not the hands.
In the Liechtenauer system that I studied, this leveraging, and thus the cut, occurs only after the hands come forward into a "universal cutting position" with the sword extended pommel-first. From there, one can cut from any direction. This position is not usually a place to stop, but rather one which all cuts in the system pass through.
Many of the grips that I used were quite long. They usually weren't less than 10 inches, and there was one which (I'm guessing) was more like 13. We were instructed to keep our hands very far apart, with one hand at the hilt and the other hand at the pommel. I have had other teachers advocate otherwise, but I'm not confident that this was grounded in historical reality. It seems to be that the longer the grip, the more difference that hand placement makes. But for shorter grips, it shouldn't make a big difference.
As for Linda Heenan's friend, I think they may have been exaggerating about crossing the arms at the elbows. The difference is more like crossing at the wrist vs. crossing at the lower forearm. Although I wouldn't be surprised if there was a slight difference in agility, I haven't noticed any. For guards in which the arms are crossed, it may help to open the back hand, only lightly gripping the sword, so that the hand isn't forced to rotate as far.
I practiced Kenjutsu for a short time, and experienced similar principles. The push/pull effect was there, although the grips on our bokken were not long enough to pose much question about placement of the hands. I believe that Japanese systems tend more towards keeping the hands apart, but I am certainly no expert on that subject.
As for the presence of the push/pull motion in Chinese swordsmanship, it appears to me that Scott Rodell employs the principle in his video Rediscovering the Chinese Long Sword, particularly in the examples of Kan and Pi cuts. I don't know if the principle is expressed in the same way to students, but the effects seem to be similar.
Feel the difference in your hands: If your back hand is not leveraging the weapon, what is it doing? Supporting weight? As far as I can tell, it seems that any two-handed strike in which the tip travels in an arc(in relation to the hands), the left hand should be leveraging the sword. This would logically apply to all styles. However, I'd be interested to know if Chinese swordsmanship might offer a way to refine this statement.
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Thanks for you input Michael, it is always interesting to compare techniques & principles across systems...Michael wrote:... As for the presence of the push/pull motion in Chinese swordsmanship, it appears to me that Scott Rodell employs the principle in his video Rediscovering the Chinese Long Sword, particularly in the examples of Kan and Pi cuts...
The push/pull motion you discuss above is certainly employed in Chinese shuangshoudao (two-handed saber). I learned the Silu Miaodao form from my Yangjia Michuan Taijiquan classmate George Hu & he made this very clear. However, I'm not sure that is was use in Chinese Double Edged Long sword systems. All we have to go on at the moment are period illustrations, like this Ming dynasty example:
These illustrations usually show the hands too close together, often touching, to effective apply a push or pull action. Of the few genuine shuangshoujian available to examine, at least half have grips that are so short the hands have to touch. So I'm afraid for the moment, the jury is out as to whether this technique is as widely applied with the shuangshoujian as it is with the shuangshoudao.
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as i only practice single handed sword forms i am not an expert.
however i see the dao relying much more on the need for power employed by push pull the jian being more relyent on a subtle use of flexability and subtle body power and the use of a good sharpening stone.i loved the clip of scott using the two hander and thru that link found his band,a nice suprise.
however i see the dao relying much more on the need for power employed by push pull the jian being more relyent on a subtle use of flexability and subtle body power and the use of a good sharpening stone.i loved the clip of scott using the two hander and thru that link found his band,a nice suprise.
the way that can
I don't know, I'm usually skeptical of labeling one weapon as requiring the use of more power, or simply more powerful than another. Part of the reason is that "power" is a vague term. Certainly, we can talk about mass, center of mass, and velocity. Overall mass is important, as a lighter sword has less inertia to overcome and can thus accelerate more quickly while transferring less kinetic energy in a strike. Here I am using a broad definition of "accelerate," which includes deceleration and changes of direction. Center of mass complicates the matter. For example, a niuweidao performs very differently than a jian because of the way that the niuweidao's blade flares out close to the end.tennytigers wrote:as i only practice single handed sword forms i am not an expert.
however i see the dao relying much more on the need for power employed by push pull the jian being more relyent on a subtle use of flexability and subtle body power and the use of a good sharpening stone.i loved the clip of scott using the two hander and thru that link found his band,a nice suprise.
One of my instructors has performed some impressive demos with longswords. Striking a sword or stick a student's hands, he executed the same cut twice, once with as much muscle and power as he could muster, and once with proper, relaxed form. As you might expect, the latter cut was more forceful. So while it may very well be true that a dao cuts more powerfully than a jian, it is important that we don't encourage others to strike harder.
Conversely, jian need power too. One might imagine that they could make up for a comparative lack of mass with higher velocity, but I doubt it is that simple. Nor would I rely on a sharper blade. The sharper the blade, the faster it dulls, and to continually sharpen a blade is to wear away at the metal.
When you consider that straighter yanmaodao and liuyedao are not so different than jian, it should lead us to wonder why they should be handled very differently. A shallow curve need not dictate technique, and the width of the blades is not always significantly different either. I believe that the primary difference is likely the balance. A well-balanced cutter will almost pull itself through the cuts, at the expense of finer point control.
I wonder why we don't see such point control as often with two-handed swords. Sure, two-handers tend to be heavier and are more likely to be balanced for cutting, but the addition of a second hand makes it much easier to control the point. Although, I suppose, using a smaller weapon does as well. I wonder if there are many examples of relatively short swords intended for use with two hands. Japanese wakizashi, perhaps?
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I don't know, you just don't see a lot of one-handed Japanese swordsmanship.tiamat9989 wrote:Been a while since I checked this post...thanks for the responses!
Is the wakizashi two-handed? I think I've seen cases where it was used two-handed but I don't know if it's usually held that way or not. Interesting point.