Chinese duels? and photos of duels?

[brianlkennedy]

In my criminal law classes here in Taiwan we got on the topic of duels, duels in the sense of legal, private battles (often, at least in early California, with signed contracts that laid out all the terms and conditions of the duel.) between individuals usually using either pistols or some type of sword.

My students and I got on this topic because the first Chief Justice of the California Supreme Court got in a pistol duel with and killed a California Senator. The cause of the duel was disagreement over whether California should become a slave state or not (i.e. allow slavery or not).

My Taiwanese prosecutor students were amazed that U.S. law (at least back in the 1700 and 1800s) would allow people to contract to attempt to kill each other. Then we turned the discussion to the topic of whether Chinese law, and in a broader sense Chinese culture, had ever allowed or had the idea of duels. Apparently not.

Is that you folks understanding too?, that traditional Chinese culture did not have the concept of duels. And I realize the difference between a duel and a challenge, is somewhat murky; but for me the major difference is that duels are often legal and duels tended to be highly ritualized.

And that brings me to another question, has anyone ever seen any photographs of Chinese swordfighters fighting? I do not mean posed training manual photos or sport sword fighting ( I have seen photos of sword bouts sponsored in the 1930s by the Jing Wu or Guo Shu programs) but photos of Chinese swordsmen actually fighting.

What prompted that question was I was looking at the photos from the Aldo Nadi duel against Adolfo Contronei that took place (I think) sometime in the 1920s or 30s and I realized that I didn't think I had ever seen similar photos from China.

Take care,
Brian

[Peter Dekker]

It indeed appears that duels were not common in Imperial China and were thus unlikely to be ritualized. Scholars in general usually kept away from martial matters as a whole because of their strict Confucianist education. According to Confucius, if two men were to compete it would be in archery as they would be standing side by side trying to attain the same goal: hitting the mark.

The Chinese government has always been quite wary on individuals wearing arms as well, usually only soldiers and militia were legally armed.

The only thing close to a duel were the unarmed fights between different masters to decide who was the best, called "pulling the tiger's beard". I don't know the exact details of these bouts and whether there was any protocol or ritual to these, I just know that they existed to establish or maintain the hierarchy between different masters. It is unlikely however, that the goal of these was death. Usually it was a "friendly" fight where one was only out to prove his martial abilities against the other.

-Peter

[Scott M. Rodell]

... unarmed fights between different masters to decide who was the best, called "pulling the tiger's beard"... a "friendly" fight where one was only out to prove his martial abilities against the other.

As I understand the term "Pulling the Tiger's Bread" it was a trail by combat that a new teacher went thru when he or she opened up a school. Essentially several other local teachers would drop in & ask for a "lesson" in the new teachers style. Obviously, these matches couldn't have been all out, but certainly, if you couldn't hold you own in a real fight you didn't open a school. I think the whole point was to protect the integrity of the arts. I think it wouldn't be bad at all if this tradition was revived...

[tiamat9989]

interesting...

Are there any records about duels that occurred in the midst of opposing armies though?

I realize that three kingdoms period took place a long time before it was novelized, but Romance of the Three Kingdoms fancifully depicts a great number of 1 on 1 duels between officers of opposing armies (Guan Yu vs. Hua Xiong, for instance). I'm just wondering if there's any historical accuracy to that practice.

[Peter Dekker]

I think the whole point was to protect the integrity of the arts. I think it wouldn't be bad at all if this tradition was revived...

It would be great indeed... Many of us are wasting their times learning contemporary sports being presented as martial arts. I once did a southern style on a school that also taught sanshou, and during the traditional classes we were taught one thing while we were supposed to do another during sparring. Only later I realized that the "traditional" art had been highly diluted into something not useful anymore and the sparring was more based on modern kickboxing. It was a lot of fun though but in effect I wasn't doing anything there that was truly traditional nor Chinese.

Back to the duels, there probably were duels on battlefields but indeed the Romance of the Three kingdoms was written so late that it can hardly be taken as very accurate on that account. There is no real evidence to point out that duels were as common as they were, for example, for the samurai class where two reputable swordsmen would often challenge each other to life or death fight. However, in a country so vast with a history so long there is a very real chance that at some time on some place it may have been common in China as well.

The diary of a 17th cent Manchu officer named Dzengseo does describe some individual actions in the midst of battles, but they don't remind of duels so much. In one passage he describes a rebel trying to kill one of his men, but the soldier turns around in fear and the sword hits his quiver instead. At that point Dzengseo kills the rebel with an arrow.

Undoubtedly there would have been man-to-man swordfights going on in about any battle, but I have yet to find a detailed description or even a vague reference to such an event. Scholars usually avoided writing about contemporary military events anyway and if they did, they would have not contained a lot of detail but just a global overview of the event such a strategies, politics, battle outcomes and logistics. The fact that most soldiers were not literate probably also contributes to the lack of detailed accounts. And even if they were literate and wrote diaries, the texts would probably not have been regarded as important enough to store in a library and likely would become lost in time.

This is quite a contrast with the Western world where detailed accounts of new lands, their people and warfare were highly appreciated.

It is an interesting subject though, I really do hope that something surfaces sooner or later.

-Peter