Hello from a fellow swordsman

[JeremyDillon]

Hello, my name is Jeremy Dillon. I recently watched a fantastic video from you guys (I believe done by your head teacher) on Chinese longsword, and, although my particular focus is western swordsmanship, I saw a lot to admire in the historical accuracy and functionality of the techniques. In particular, I noticed a couple of techniques which were similar to techniques practiced by practitioners of the European longsword. Not a huge surprise, as there are some similarities between the weapons themselves. I was wondering if any of you have ever tried cross-training with members of any western martial tradition? I'm sure the folks at the ARMA would relish a chance to practice/spar with serious practitioners of a different tradition.

[Linda Heenan]

Hello Jeremy. Welcome. I am one of those who often trains with European style swordsman. When I first began training in jian, I had Scott Rodell Laoshi's DVD on Applications from the Yang Family Michuan Taiji Jian Form. There has to be a practise partner to work on them, and I was the first of my school over here, so there was no one to train with. I advertised on the SFI Practise Partner Finder and found no one of any kind of Chinese swordsmanship style in Australia.

The one who answered me was Paul Wagner from Sydney. That's only a couple of hours train ride down the hill, so I started meeting with him in a park on Sunday afternoons. He had agreed to partner me in learning the applications from the DVD, and in the process, I learnt some German Longsword, Claymore, and English Quarterstaff. We looked at parts of the Jian form together and he showed me some interesting ways they could be interpreted against moves from European styles. I had no idea who Paul Wagner was, but most European swordsmen would travel further than me to train with him.

After about 9 months of that, I decided I had better stop to focus on my taijiquan until I was well enough established in the main body principles, so that I wasn't mixing styles.

Two years later, I found myself in need of advanced partners to train with, to upgrade my skills. We have other people trained in jian now, but it is mostly me who leads the groups, so I still needed someone to train with and challenge me. After consultation with my teacher, I went back to Paul. We train in English Longsword/Miaodao, and Highlander Broadsword/Jian. I'm learning to control my feet, see what is coming and counter faster - arriving first, be missing from the strike area when a strike comes, and bring my own in from an unexpected angle, and many other things that are common to both styles.

What I would like most in the world is to be within 2 hours drive of my school in America and go there for regular training, but I'm a whole day's flight away, and glad that a European swordsman of such expertise, is close enough and willing to put in time with me. It fills a big gap. I do share what is covered in training, with my teacher, so I can keep true to my own style, but I could also (and do) spar in several European styles.

[Scott M. Rodell]

... ever tried cross-training with members of any western martial tradition?...

I have a bit (see: SFI Thread: Cross Sparring with Chinese Swordsmanship viewtopic.php?t=203). Interestingly enough, I found facing a WMA wielding a Long Sword not unlike facing a miaodao practitioner. Certainly there are some techinques that are unique to each system, but as you noted overall they have much in common.

In general though, the Chinese Swordsmanship community has a lot of catching up to do with where the WMA are. You guys have done a great job bringing the European arts back... the Tournament Next May 10th in Bozeman should help give us a push (see: http://www.swordleague.com/)

[JeremyDillon]

Thanks for the links, Scott. One thing I and some other practitioners have noted from your video was how the Chinese manual pages are very similar in terms of style and presentation to the European works that we study. One of the advantages that you guys appear to have is a fairly recent connection to the art itself as it was used in war. One of the difficulties we in the WMA community come up against is that we have no real unbroken tradition to draw teachings from. A surviving tradition of swordsmanship which was used in an actual martial setting as late as 1945 must be an incredible resource. Since you practice techniques from both a modern source and an ancient one (e.g. the period manual referenced in the video), are there many appreciable differences between how the techniques appear in the old resource as opposed to the new?

edit: it's also extremely gratifying to see another group of martial artists promoting the idea of deflecting edge-on-flat as opposed to edge-on-edge.

[Scott M. Rodell]

... One of the advantages that you guys appear to have is a fairly recent connection to the art itself as it was used in war. One of the difficulties we in the WMA community come up against is that we have no real unbroken tradition to draw teachings from...

We have opposite strengths & weakmesses... There are almost no Chinese manuals to be had, & those few we do have are either extremely archane or extremely terse. But we do have a living tradtions, though this traditon has gotten quite thin, but there is just enough there to bring it back with diligent work. You guys seem to have it just the opposite, the arts for the most part died out but you have great manuals & lots of good translations. Kinda funny isn't it... I envy the wealth of primary printed sources European swordsmen have & I guess a few WMA* wish they had some living masters in an unbroken line...

*shouldn't that really be EMA? E for Euro.

[JeremyDillon]

Actually, we often do use WMA (for Western Martial Arts). HEMA is also popular (for Historical European Martial Arts). I personally don't use EMA when describing the European arts because I've seen that acronym used to represent Eastern Martial Arts. It's all a bit baffling . That's an interesting dichotomy between the two traditions, and yes, we are very envious of your living connections to the art as it was used in battle. The manuals we have at our disposal are handy, and without them we would be up a pretty fierce river without a paddle, but they do present some difficulties. One of the main problems with them is that they were often originally written as a kind of training supplement for students of the person writing them, so they're often rather cryptic or vague, and frequently contained lessons on chivalry, honor and spirituality which, to the modern practitioner seeking to learn merely the practicalities of the art, are not particularly useful. Are the few chinese manuals available to you similar in this respect, or were they written more as comprehensive guides?

[Scott M. Rodell]

... we often do use WMA ... HEMA is also popular (for Historical European Martial Arts). I personally don't use EMA when describing the European arts because I've seen that acronym used to represent Eastern Martial Arts.

I see the problem, the whole East/West things is so out of date though, I mean from where I live, Europe is to the east & Asia is to the west...

... yes, we are very envious of your living connections ... manuals we have at our disposal are handy... but they do present some difficulties. One of the main problems with them is that they were often originally written as a kind of training supplement for students of the person writing them, so they're often rather cryptic or vague... Chinese manuals available to you similar in this respect...

Pretty much, the very few Chinese manuals that we have at the moment are next to useless for one of more of several reasons:

1) They are written for practitioners of that system, so unless you know that form (which may be dead) you can not follow the text because it says something like, "When A attacks with Split Mt. Hua, B responds with Flowery Belt technique." These names sound overly colorful, but they very specific techniques for a form one just has to have an intimate knowledge of that form to understand it.

2) Some of the texts seem to be little more than cliff notes. So if one is trained in that system these notes will help one remember all the parts, etc. Again, one needs to be of that system to use these notes.

3) The text is so terse that parts are actually not there. For example, when I was working to recreate General Qi's Shuangshoudao form (Two-handed Saber), the text repeatedly says, "Take one step forward." The problem is, the accompanying woodcut illustrations show the soldier with the left foot forward every time. Clearly, if one takes one step forward the front foot would alternate. So I was left to decide what the foot work actually was with no clues in the text & this form is over 400 years old & been dead for some time. In these cases we just have to fill in using common sense based on stepping techniques of other two-handed sword forms. Not unexpectedly there are always several possiblities.

[JeremyDillon]

I see the problem, the whole East/West things is so out of date though, I mean from where I live, Europe is to the east & Asia is to the west...

I couldn't agree more, especially since our study is strictly concerned with European arts, and doesn't include things like bowie knife fighting, tomahawk fighting and modern U.S. Army combatives. Initially I suppose the phrasing was used so that a clear distinction could be made between European martial arts and Asian martial arts, which is what many (maybe even most) people think of when they hear the term "martial arts". But I do agree that it's a rather dated way of saying things. On the subject of manuals, we definitely also use the common sense method to "fill in the gaps" occasionally. I think it's a fairly logical approach, because the fighting systems had a very clear purpose and, often, very simple foundations, so looking at it from a common sense angle with a good knowledge of body mechanics and a strong concept of timing and range seems to be a very effective method of translating some of the more muddled texts. One other resource we often use is period artwork depicting battle, as well as written reports of battles and the injuries they caused. I saw in the video some examples of ancient Chinese artwork depicting soldiers and I'm wondering if any of these pieces of artwork have given you additional insight in the way that Medieval and Renaissance European artwork has aided in our interpretation of the texts.

[Scott M. Rodell]

... One other resource we often use is period artwork depicting battle, as well as written reports of battles and the injuries they caused... some examples of ancient Chinese artwork depicting soldiers ... artwork ... given you additional insight...

Some, but not a lot when it comes to actual technique. There are a fair number of battle scene paintings & woodcuts availble. Most are naturally from the Qing with probably most available, detailed illustrations being from the Taiping Rebellion in the 1860's. These are useful in giving us an idea as to the ratio of different types of arms on the battle field, such as polearms to swords, infantry to artillery, etc. & in giving us an idea as to the battle formations.

Here's one example from an 18th c. battle-
We can see how in this painting how the Manchus decided to scaped the carrages for their cannon when fighting in tough terrain. This allowed them to take cannon into mountainous areas where they otherwise could not.

[Scott M. Rodell]

... period artwork depicting battle... given you additional insight...

Period artwork has probably been of greatest help so far in my study of Chinese saber & shield fighting.

See: Saber and Shield - viewtopic.php?t=181&highlight=shield+saber
for illustrations & discussion...