What do Collectors Think of Double Swords?

bond_fan · Post by **bond_fan** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:31 am

Hi!

I was wonder what do Chinese sword collectors think of double swords?

I am referring to either jian or dao swords where two swords are stored into one scabbard, and are drawn as one, but are handles ae split in two halves.

I'd assume they are not as comfortable to hold, but it seems they would be more rare to find?

I wonder if the extra rarity adds to the value, or the not as comfortable of a handle negates any rarity factor?

Thanks!

Peter Dekker · Post by **Peter Dekker** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 6:16 pm

Hi,

It is indeed not very common to find a complete pair or double jian or dao. Half grips still hold pretty comfortable as you have the round part in the palm, it usually fits quite well.

On value, what matters most of all is the quality of the item (how well was it made) and the condition (how well was it preserved). Double weapons I have encountered so far were generally not of good quality nor condition so they had little added value for most collectors.

When encountering let's say, an outstanding pair of double dao of excellent quality and condition, they might be worth more than two single dao of similar quality and condition because it is more rare to encounter a well made pair than it is to encounter a well made single weapon.

Still, the market decides and it might be a bit hard to sell due to the increased price so that it ends up being sold for not that much more. It's a murky world!

-Peter

josh stout · Post by **josh stout** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 2:50 pm

As a collector and user of double swords, I would like to say that I love them. Many open hand movements can be turned into double sword techniques, and they produce a much more balanced feel than swinging something heavier on one side. There is a bit more danger than with single weapons as there is much more to be aware of.

As a collector I find them quite fun as other cultures didn't seem to come up with this idea on quite the same scale. There is always the surprise value of one sword becoming two, which is quite appealing. However, as Peter says, I wouldn't expect a double blade to be much more expensive than a comparable single blade. I would just pick the double blade first.
Josh

Scott M. Rodell · Post by **Scott M. Rodell** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 10:19 am

josh stout wrote:As a collector and user of double swords, I would like to say that I love them...

Just for fun, here's an illustration from the "Outlaws of the Marsh"...

josh stout · Post by **josh stout** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 10:43 am

The illustration is interesting in that it shows two full size swords, rather than the usual shorter ones, and also they appear to be a matched set that would be kept in separate scabbards rather than two in one scabbard as one usually finds. The guards are full round rather than half round. It makes me think of the Burmese double dha fighters with one over each shoulder. Has anyone found matched sets like this?
Josh

Scott M. Rodell · Post by **Scott M. Rodell** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 7:07 am

josh stout wrote:... two full size swords, rather than the usual shorter ones... anyone found matched sets like this?

Keep in mind that this is a book illustration, so that artist might have taken more liberties when drawing the hero in action...

Be that as it may, your observations are right on. Thru my Company, I've own over 600 Chinese swords. Sets of double are fairly rare, only about 6 sets come to mind. Of those, I can only recall one set of paired, full length & weight willow leaf dao & one full size set of pair Ox Tail dao. However, those Ox tail dao were later, probably of the Republican period & the blades were not of the steel one would expect for swords intended to be used in real combat.

Overall, paired swords are undoubtedly a great training tools, but given their rarity, I believe that the majority found them too difficult to wield effectively in combat.

josh stout · Post by **josh stout** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:13 pm

I also wonder when the illustration was made. "Outlaws of the Marsh" is a Ming period account of Song dynasty events, and the hilt visible on one saber has the curved pistol grip shape I associate with Qinlong era sabers. Were they also found in the Ming?
Josh

Scott M. Rodell · Post by **Scott M. Rodell** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 5:51 pm

josh stout wrote:... the curved pistol grip shape ... also found in the Ming?

Yes, I recall seeing them in Ming illustrations.

josh stout · Post by **josh stout** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:04 pm

I have been going through the book "Chinese Weapons" (Werner 1932) and there are two depictions of soldiers on siege weapons with double sabers. There is no indication where the pictures came from, but they look like Ming woodblocks. In one set of 15 soldiers, 5 have shuangdao, and on a couple it is possible to see complete guards. Of the others there are no spearmen, one archer, and one tigerman, so I think this is a special strike force. In the next picture there are four soldiers, two with shuangdao, both with complete guards. It seems that at least at some point, the shuangdao was used by Chinese military perhaps as part of some sort of special assault forces. Perhaps the rareness of true full size shuangdao is because in many cases double sabers were simply a matched set rather than the two-in-one kind with half round guards that we normally think of. This might also explain the prevalence of shuangdao movements in traditional CMAs that does not seem to be represented by a prevalence of the weapons themselves.
Josh