Is there a difference, in free-play, between jian and dao?
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In terms of strategy, is there a difference for the taiji quan sword-fighter when utilizing jian versus dao? I have been contemplating Laoshi's council about sticking/ adhering/ joining/ following, in regards to initiating an attack. In terms of internal energy, I assume that the type of weapon would be irrelevant. Yet, in classic Chinese literature, the the nature of the jian is compared to the phoenix or crane and the dao is likened to the ferocious tiger. Would this effect one's aproach in free-play? Does the design of the sword influence how we apply these principles? It sure seems that one would apply radically diverse strategies if the weapons concerned were an ice-pick versus a butcher-knife. Or is this just external thinking?
Yours in Martial Spirit, Jon Palombi
Yours in Martial Spirit, Jon Palombi
A wise person aspires to learn the practice of swordsmanship. A lucky person finds a worthy Teacher. A fool cannot tell the difference.
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I know very little about historical swordplay, but I am fairly knowledgeable about the characters of the animals, and can speculate about how that would apply to swords.
The tiger fights usually with arms bent, and usually at medium to close distances. Also in tiger style one moves forward aggressively to cause the other person to retreat, lose the initiative, and become tangled in their own limbs. The tiger uses quick slashing movements combined with occasional more powerful but slower attacks. I imagine that this would all roughly translate well into saber style, particularly with the oxtail dao. One would move forward with quick slashes to put one's opposite on the defensive, and create openings for more powerful fight ending chops and thrusts.
The crane is generally a longer-range fighter, certainly with the ability to fight close, but that would not be the preferred distance. A crane is much more likely to retreat to maintain the longer range, while a tiger would try and move in. The crane tends to be more precise in targeting with few if any slashing attacks, but many quick flicks with the finger tips. Balance and footwork are very important. When a crane slaps, it is not a roundhouse sort of attack, but rather it is more of a straight-line attack with a loose wrist and the fingers flicking out at the end. I imagine that these principles would apply very well to the jian. Longer range precision targeting would make a jian a superior weapon. The crane will win against the tiger if the crane remains calm and keeps the tiger at the correct range. The tiger will win if it can fluster the crane and move inside where the crane is weak.
In a packed crowd I would choose tiger over crane, in a more open environment, the crane is superior, but requires a balanced mind.
Josh
The tiger fights usually with arms bent, and usually at medium to close distances. Also in tiger style one moves forward aggressively to cause the other person to retreat, lose the initiative, and become tangled in their own limbs. The tiger uses quick slashing movements combined with occasional more powerful but slower attacks. I imagine that this would all roughly translate well into saber style, particularly with the oxtail dao. One would move forward with quick slashes to put one's opposite on the defensive, and create openings for more powerful fight ending chops and thrusts.
The crane is generally a longer-range fighter, certainly with the ability to fight close, but that would not be the preferred distance. A crane is much more likely to retreat to maintain the longer range, while a tiger would try and move in. The crane tends to be more precise in targeting with few if any slashing attacks, but many quick flicks with the finger tips. Balance and footwork are very important. When a crane slaps, it is not a roundhouse sort of attack, but rather it is more of a straight-line attack with a loose wrist and the fingers flicking out at the end. I imagine that these principles would apply very well to the jian. Longer range precision targeting would make a jian a superior weapon. The crane will win against the tiger if the crane remains calm and keeps the tiger at the correct range. The tiger will win if it can fluster the crane and move inside where the crane is weak.
In a packed crowd I would choose tiger over crane, in a more open environment, the crane is superior, but requires a balanced mind.
Josh
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Lady Yueh on Swordsmanship
Explaining from where her skill in jianfa came, the Lady of Yueh said,
"The way of swordsmanship is very subtle yet easy, its meaning very obscure & profound, it involves the principles of yin & yang, a good swordsman should appear perfectly calm like a fine lady, but capable of quick action like a tiger."
"The way of swordsmanship is very subtle yet easy, its meaning very obscure & profound, it involves the principles of yin & yang, a good swordsman should appear perfectly calm like a fine lady, but capable of quick action like a tiger."
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Zhuangzi on Swordsmanship
Zhuangzi on Swordsmanship...
"A good swordsman makes a display of emptiness, draws his opponent out by giving him an obvious advantage, his strike begins moving after his adversary's, but arrives at its target first."
That sums up the ideal of jianfa...
"A good swordsman makes a display of emptiness, draws his opponent out by giving him an obvious advantage, his strike begins moving after his adversary's, but arrives at its target first."
That sums up the ideal of jianfa...
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Well said, I would say that is generally good advice, though I might say it as "take advantage of the duifang's strength," that way you aren't telling a beginner who is still thinking in terms of "rules" (he does this, I do that) that he should literaly be "attacking" when perhaps he should be using that strength draw the duifang out for example...josh stout wrote:... better to attack strength, because weakness can be a trap.
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Is there a difference, in free-play, between jian and dao?
Jian and Dao are different weapons, In my swordsmanship, we have 27 cutting forms versus 13 cutting forms in Taichi. Dao has its own cutting technique, too. When in Free-play, there is no difference besides technique difference. Most important is the mind. There are many different levels in free play. For beginners (I defined as practitioners who does not know how to feel the force and read the feedback from the contact), what they concern is about surviving. For higher level free play, you will setup so called energy field. It is in your mind. Increase the sensitivity to sense any force in the free play field. Then you will be able to use your Jian to swallow the force or setup a trap for enemy to fall into it. Jian is not only a way to fight. It is also a way for enlightenment. This is what I have been teaching my students.
Best Regards,
Kevin Hou
Sword Zen Foundation
禪指門
Best Regards,
Kevin Hou
Sword Zen Foundation
禪指門
Sword Master
Kevin Hou
Kevin Hou
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Re: Is there a difference, in free-play, between jian and da
I'm afraid I must disagree. As you point out jian & dao are different weapons, historically dao are heavier with a more forward point of balance than jian. Also as you pointed out, while there cuts in common between jian & dao, each also uses cuts the other doesn't; for example most dao are too curved to effectively employ the tip for thrusting or pointing as the jian does. Furthermore, the closer to the guard point of balance for jian allows for a faster, short energy techniques, that are often too slow to use effectively with a dao. Jian by virtue of the double edged tip can also employ back edge hitting cuts such as ji & tiao, which only goose quill dao can preform.SwordzenMaster wrote:Jian and Dao are different weapons... When in Free-play, there is no difference besides technique difference...
Comparing historical jian & dao, it is clear they are different tools designed for different jobs. The dao is designed to deliver more powerful blows, generally of a more percussive nature; while the jian is a cut & thrust weapon, designed for versatility. So while each weapon can employ techniques of the other, jianfa & daofa are elemental different as is their method of swordplay. As each weapon has it own character, each requires a different mind intent to take advantage of each weapons strengths. Certainly there are aspects of mind that are the same in an experienced swordsman, whether using a jian or dao, but in terms of the question posed, is there a difference in their free-swordplay, the answer is yes there is a difference in Mind Intent. Just as the character of the mind intent of a crane or tiger is different when hunting, the swordplay mind intent of jianfa & daofa is as different as the weapons themselves.
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Reply
Dear Scott,
I never say there is no difference. I totally agree whatever you said. If you only focus on whether there is difference in free play in different weapon, the answer is definitely YES. I was considering on Fighting with jian and Dao.
I would like to introduce you what I learn, but I cannot at this moment because a promise to my master.. Not the time yet. Our style is past down in secrecy. If we reveal too early, it might cause controversy to define who is the true source of Chin Pin sword. In China, there are three most famous swordsmanship, Chin Pin Jian, Kun Wu Jian and Taichi Jian. Chin Pin Jian is considered lost, but we are the one who still teaching. And it is the oldest, most difficult and most sophisticated form in all Chinese swordsmanship.
There is one thing that I need to point out about the sword play in your competition. From my linkage, sword is categorized into two types basically. One is dead Jian, the other is call Jian with spirit. It is very hard for me to explain it without illustrations. Most of sword used in competition is called dead sword. I am too far from you. I would like to share my experience with you, if we can meet in the future.
Regarding the balance for Jian, you are correct. Not many people know about this. The balance for our style is right on the guard. Therefore, I have to adjust for almost all the swords for my students. First, sword should not be bendable. Second, Jian is only sharpened close to the tip area. Third, the body of the jian close to the guard should be thick. Like a block of metal around there. This is the standard for Chinese ancient Jian which is the type we use for our swordsmanship. Only this type of sword can claim "八面威風". You can call it eight fatal points of Jian. That is why we can perform more cutting styles(發勁法) than Taichi.
Now, I still need to say one thing.. For free play, there are 4 elements are the same for all weapons, Hand, Eye, Body and Steps. It would be too complicated, if we discuss more about it.
Hope I can have time to visit you some day.
I never say there is no difference. I totally agree whatever you said. If you only focus on whether there is difference in free play in different weapon, the answer is definitely YES. I was considering on Fighting with jian and Dao.
I would like to introduce you what I learn, but I cannot at this moment because a promise to my master.. Not the time yet. Our style is past down in secrecy. If we reveal too early, it might cause controversy to define who is the true source of Chin Pin sword. In China, there are three most famous swordsmanship, Chin Pin Jian, Kun Wu Jian and Taichi Jian. Chin Pin Jian is considered lost, but we are the one who still teaching. And it is the oldest, most difficult and most sophisticated form in all Chinese swordsmanship.
There is one thing that I need to point out about the sword play in your competition. From my linkage, sword is categorized into two types basically. One is dead Jian, the other is call Jian with spirit. It is very hard for me to explain it without illustrations. Most of sword used in competition is called dead sword. I am too far from you. I would like to share my experience with you, if we can meet in the future.
Regarding the balance for Jian, you are correct. Not many people know about this. The balance for our style is right on the guard. Therefore, I have to adjust for almost all the swords for my students. First, sword should not be bendable. Second, Jian is only sharpened close to the tip area. Third, the body of the jian close to the guard should be thick. Like a block of metal around there. This is the standard for Chinese ancient Jian which is the type we use for our swordsmanship. Only this type of sword can claim "八面威風". You can call it eight fatal points of Jian. That is why we can perform more cutting styles(發勁法) than Taichi.
Now, I still need to say one thing.. For free play, there are 4 elements are the same for all weapons, Hand, Eye, Body and Steps. It would be too complicated, if we discuss more about it.
Hope I can have time to visit you some day.
Sword Master
Kevin Hou
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Not quite, there are a number of Taiji Sword forms for both the jian & dao created at different times by different lineage. Naturally, each successive form is built on the previous one, so they have much in common, but also some minor differences, one such example is the Northern Wu Style Taiji Jian which uses a two handed grip for some cuts that the Yang form does not. Likewise, the early taiji sword forms didn't appear out of thin air, but drew upon the traditions & experience of existing forms.Nik wrote:Isn't "Taiji sword" also just a version of a certain general taught to the Chens and other families, which went by another name before (and after) ?
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Re: Reply
You are welcome to visit any time, I am always happy to qie cuo with another serious practitioner... I hope this also means you will be sending students to the next TCSL Tournament, it is planned for June 2009.SwordzenMaster wrote:... the sword play in your competition. From my linkage, sword is categorized into two types basically. One is dead Jian, the other is call Jian with spirit. It is very hard for me to explain it without illustrations. Most of sword used in competition is called dead sword. I am too far from you. I would like to share my experience with you, if we can meet in the future...
As for the Competition, I would be cautious in describing the play as dead, or without spirit. Certainly, there was a good deal of sloppy technique, there were poorly executed techniques, & there were moments of excellence. Being up on a platform in front of a crowd with another serious practitioner who is really trying to hit you with a pound & a half of oak is not like the training hall. It is easy for us to sit at home at our computers & philosophize & criticize the players errors, but we should respect them for getting up on that platform in public to test their skills. Not many philosophers are willing to do that.
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I am not too knowledgeable about the actual use of the weapons, I much prefer to practice forms, and our "free play" is mostly done with an agreed upon slow motion rythm (although with semi-sharp and very pointy weapons). Also, my training partner is mostly my Karate teacher who has a very strong background in Iaido, although keenly trying to learn Taiji swordsmanship, which may introduce a foreign element to our practice.
But....
I tend to prefer the dao and I've generally found that the use of the second hand in "supporting" the action of the dao, especially when pressing or sticking to the enemy - and also, not very frequezntly used in Taiji but appears in Bagua, when "pulling" or "retracting" in a an aggressive manner - is invaluable, and has the frequent secondary effects of nullifying the jian's greater speed and thrusting abilities (perhaps "pointing" is what you would say - I'm not too good at chinese terminology since my teacher's portuguese skills are very bad and I haven't really had the patience yet of teaching myself the actual terms). This secondary hand method is very common in Bagua dao methods (and perhaps other methods), even more so than in Yang Taiji dao form and when mixed with fast footwork and short range becomes a very useful tool.
Has anyone else expermiented with this?
But....
I tend to prefer the dao and I've generally found that the use of the second hand in "supporting" the action of the dao, especially when pressing or sticking to the enemy - and also, not very frequezntly used in Taiji but appears in Bagua, when "pulling" or "retracting" in a an aggressive manner - is invaluable, and has the frequent secondary effects of nullifying the jian's greater speed and thrusting abilities (perhaps "pointing" is what you would say - I'm not too good at chinese terminology since my teacher's portuguese skills are very bad and I haven't really had the patience yet of teaching myself the actual terms). This secondary hand method is very common in Bagua dao methods (and perhaps other methods), even more so than in Yang Taiji dao form and when mixed with fast footwork and short range becomes a very useful tool.
Has anyone else expermiented with this?
José de Freitas
Lisbon, Portugal
Lisbon, Portugal
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That is an excellent method of practice for getting the movements in your body & helping beginners see how things work. Its also a great way for students of different skill levels to work together so the slower speed equalizes them, making the training valuable for both. We use this type of training all the time.JoseFreitas wrote:... our "free play" is mostly done with an agreed upon slow motion rythm (although with semi-sharp and very pointy weapons)...
Thanks for bringing that up, it is an excellent point & illustrates another manner in which the nature of daofa & jianfa are different.JoseFreitas wrote: ... the use of the second hand in "supporting" the action of the dao,...