Blocking with Jians and Daos

[Chris Fields]

Thanks Scott for directing me to this site.

Here are a few questions I asked Scott through email, I wanted to post here and add some more questions.

Hey again, I had a couple of quick questions after reading on the forums. I was just running through my jian form and I was wondering, is it always improper to block with the edge?

Scott: Yes, absolutely, no question about it at all.

Also, is it the same for Daos? I have been taught that it is ok with the dao to block with the edge.

Scott: Sorry, but that is dead wrong.

The engineer in me, thinks that it is safer to block with the edge, although it will damage your edge, because the sword is stronger in that direction than it is on the flat of the blade.

Scott: The engineer should also understand how that damage will crack the blade causing it to break.

Blocking a hard strike with either a jian or a dao along the flat of the blade greatly increased the chance of that sword breaking, because there is just not enough material behind it. Curious on your thoughts. Thanks

Scott: The opposite is true. This has to due with the relative hardness of the steel in different areas of the blade.

Thanks for the clarification I understand now with the different hardness of the blade, i didn't take that into account. (stage combat blades are through hardened, same hardness all the way through, and a blunted edge, to it is safer to block with the edge in stage combat). No need to talk me into buying a book, I already planned on it. =)

Oh, one other question on this topic concerning daos. In all of our forms,(using an ox-tail dao)if the sword is in our right hand, we have a block in which the back of the blade, just below the widest point of the blade, is braced agaisnt the tricep of our left arm as we hold the blade inverted slightly infront and above our head. Are you familar with this block?

Scott:Yes, but if I understand what you are speaking of, it is jie,
intercept, not a block of an incoming sword. There is also another
cut called hua that is used to intercept a movement, not to be
confused with another hua which is a horizontal percussive cut, same
sound, different character...

I have noticed this block in several other styles of kung fu as well. However, this block forces the edge of the sword to do the blocking. Am I missing something? I am thinking this move has been incorrectly translated over the years of the form being passed down with out actual sword to sword work. Thanks

Scott: Yes, exactly, this is why it is good to know all the basic cuts as
well as metallurgy...


Thanks again, and hopefully someone else may be able to benefit from this conversation.

My next question is: What do you mean by "intercept"

Also, i just ran through some math on the strenght of a blade in the different directions. I know this goes agaisnt the teachings, but the blade is still stronger blocking with the edge. Lets say a crack is formed from impact by edge on edge. Lets also say that the blade is 1 inch wide. lets also say the sword is differentially tempered. The crack will propagate to the grain boundry of the higher hardness steel. So lets say that crack grows 1/4". Meaning, the temper line of the sword is 1/4" from the edge. That leaves a remain 3/4" of steel in that area. The blade still is stronger through that 3/4" compared to the possible .2" thickness. There are several other factors here, but think about it this way. Place a sword between 2 blocks, with the pommel on one block, and the top of the sword on the other block. If the flat of the blade is up, and you swing a another sword down on it, the impact will cause the blade to flex and possibly snap. If you turn the same sword up on edge, and do the same thing, you will chip and possibly crack the edge alittle, but the sword will not flex enough to see with the eye. Now, back to the first way, if the sword flexes but does not break, the flexing actually absorbs the energy of the blow. Where as edge on edge there is much small evergy absortion. So, in that manner, the blade may "seem" stronger in that direction, but in reality is it not. Make sense? So, Although it is stronger, it's still not good for the edge of your sword. And I would not want to kill the edge of a nice sword!

[Roland Tepp]

Also, i just ran through some math on the strenght of a blade in the different directions. I know this goes agaisnt the teachings, but the blade is still stronger blocking with the edge.

Indeed - the blade is stronger if blocking edge to edge, the implications, as you also reached is that edge to edge the blade it is also less flexible and thus more brittle. Flexing of the blade sideways will absorb much of the shock thus lessening the chance of fractures that may spread when hitting blades hard edge on edge.

Besides - most of the "blocks" are almost never "hard blocks" that go straight force against force and are aimed at redirecting the opponents blade rather than stopping it, this way also lessening the force of impact.

[josh stout]

I think it would be extremely difficult if not impossible to break a sword by hitting it on the flat if the sword was held in the hand. There is just too much give.

I love to look at old battle scars on blades, and there are a few things I have noticed. There are very often rectangular/triangular ended nicks at an angle to the edge along the first third of the blade near the tip. This is where someone used the back of a dao in a fairly hard block to stop a hard chop. These can ruin the edge being blocked fairly quickly which was probably part of the intent. There are also frequently deep notches right where the cutting edge meets the guard. This looks like one of the few cases where blocking with the edge was done intentionally or at least with knowledge. The edge is thickest there, and the point where the guard meets the blade provides a convenient catching surface while having the close support of the hand. Often blades are not hardened in this area, and the edge is rounded or at least not very sharp. When the incoming blade was not caught exactly on the forte, one sees often sees damage to the guard. This may have been intentional in some cases. A friend has a nice oxtail with absolutely no damage to the blade, but deep cuts to the guard. And the guard looks like it was replaced more than once, so the technique of using the guard may have been a habit of that particular user.

Then there are the edge on edge cuts. You do see them on antiques, but I am convinced they were a matter of desperation. The narrow notches of edge to edge blocking often go through the high carbon steel at the edge, significantly weakening the blade and setting it up for a crack. The laminated body of the blade and the common brass insets work to stop cracks spreading, but it would not be a blade that you would want to bring to your next fight.

I have often seen edge nicks on the back of dao, and they are almost always at an angle to the back, so the edge was met with a more triangular contact point. I have also occasionally seen long edge marks on the flats of jian blades, though these seem to either be polished out or avoided by softer blocking. The one jian I have like this is of the short and thick variety that could withstand harder blocks.

I hope this helps.
Josh

[Chris Fields]

thanks for your comments.

As I understand it, please correctly me if I am wrong, but of the few original Daos I have held, they seem to be more stiff blades, not as flexible as ... say.. western arming swords or longswords. I have actually broken several well heat treated and temeperd blades by hitting them on the flat, and these were more flexible than I think the original chinese swords were, so they should have been harder to break.

my guess on the hardnesses of a chinese sword would be RC 55 - 60 on the edge, and 45 -50 in the middle. Does this sound right. One of the swords I broke was 55 on the edge and 35 in the middle. I was a nice del tin arming sword that a friend was using for stage combat. I had a very similar sword, though it was a Lutel, and I think they through harden them to just RC 45 -50. It also could have been a section of the blade that was poorly treated. But this has happen more than once with several of the best western swords out there.

[PaulC]

It’s nice to see that good information is getting out there on the hazards of hard blocking edge on edge. I have conducted numerous tests over the years to see how edge damage affects blade life. To summarize – any large chip, cut into the edge will cause a MUCH greater chance of catastrophic failure in that area. If the damage is just forward of the impact point during a hard cut.. there’s an even greater chance things will go badly. Having the sword on the softer side, or using a softer core can help to hold the blade together for a while, but even with these precautions, most blades will self destruct.

When the sword was being used in a battle, let alone a series of confrontations, making sure that your blade lasted as long as possible was of supreme importance. Using the flat to redirect causes the least amount of over-all blade stress; the force being spread over a wider area. The force is also is vectored so there is no 100% transfer of striking energy into the defending blade. Keeping these forces on your sword as low as possible while still keeping the opponent's blade from doing you harm is important no matter what type of sword we are talking about.

Here is a link to some edge on edge striking…. Not a pretty picture.
http://www.thearma.org/Videos/EdgeBashing1.htm

[josh stout]

thanks for your comments.

As I understand it, please correctly me if I am wrong, but of the few original Daos I have held, they seem to be more stiff blades, not as flexible as ... say.. western arming swords or longswords. I have actually broken several well heat treated and temeperd blades by hitting them on the flat, and these were more flexible than I think the original chinese swords were, so they should have been harder to break.

my guess on the hardnesses of a chinese sword would be RC 55 - 60 on the edge, and 45 -50 in the middle. Does this sound right. One of the swords I broke was 55 on the edge and 35 in the middle. I was a nice del tin arming sword that a friend was using for stage combat. I had a very similar sword, though it was a Lutel, and I think they through harden them to just RC 45 -50. It also could have been a section of the blade that was poorly treated. But this has happen more than once with several of the best western swords out there.

That is very interesting. I think your understanding of blade hardness is fairly accurate for Chinese swords, but I am not sure that is the whole story. I have never tried swinging metal against metal, and never will with my antiques, so it is not something I am going to test. I would make no claims that Chinese swords have super powers, but they can withstand huge forces without breaking. I recently received a package that had been broken in half in shipping. The antique duan jian inside was bent at right angles. There were no signs of any cracks even when I bent it (mostly) straight again.

I had been thinking that you couldn't break a sword on the flat because in the hand it would always absorb the blow and reduce the impact. However, a very hard block can apparently do it. I should have thought of this because my teacher has broken a one-inch pine dowel on my arm doing a hard block to an incoming punch. Hard blocks can be very hard indeed. Perhaps it is a good idea to avoid them with blades you want to keep. Most blocks I know of in traditional styles use blocks designed more to guide or deflect an incoming strike, and that is probably the reason or part of it.

Still, imagine what a hard block would do edge-to-edge. Both swords would be ruined every time.
Josh

[Chris Fields]

Thanks for the good replies.

Paul C, what types of swords were those shown in the picture? In all the inpacts of swords I have seen, and done... and there have been many that were very hard, I have only seen a few that damage the edge so much (well, that didn't break the sword right away), and the reasons were, the swords were cheap and had awful edge geometry.

Thanks again. I have to admit, in the heat of battle, no matter how much you train, you are going to hit your sword edge on another sword, or get blocked the wrong way, or hit a hard belt buckle, or helmet, or something, right?

[Peter Dekker]

I have to admit, in the heat of battle, no matter how much you train, you are going to hit your sword edge on another sword, or get blocked the wrong way, or hit a hard belt buckle, or helmet, or something, right?

I don't have any real battle experience, nor am I a very experienced swordsman so I can only speculate based on things I've seen:

I have seen quite a number of antique Chinese swords and sabers and where small chips and nicks are pretty common, you rarely encounter a sword that is really beaten up. One might say that such swords were thrown away, but there are enough other swords left that have fatal flaws in them which were still kept for some reason.

This makes me believe that on average these old weapons got to endure very little edge to edge contact, and that edges were generally only used for cutting softer targets, even in the heat of battle.

Examples:
I have seen a dadao with many dents in the back, indicating the wielder had probably beaten an edge aside with that strong part of the blade numerous times, while his cutting edge was pretty much intact and had never endured such stress.

I have also seen a big two handed liuyedao that is bent forward right after a nick. Probably the wielder gave it all with two hands and hit someone else's steel pretty hard with his edge, permanently damaging his saber with one single action.

Theory:
From Scott Rodell's seminars I have learned that there is also not much to be gained from edge to edge blocking because you make it hard for yourself to do a follow up. When rather beating the opponent's weapon aside with the flat of your blade, you can create a chance for yourself to go in.

-Peter

[Chris Fields]

Oh, I understand the theory, and I would follow it as well.

I am just saying with the utter chaos of wars fought in those times, especially pre 19th century when you had 100s, or possibly 1000s of warriors rushing each other at once, you are going to get your edge hit or you will hit it on another target. It's like jumping into the middle of one of those kids ball pits with multicolor balls and saying you are not going to touch a red ball.

I would also think, that as an enemy, I would want to make my opponents weapons useless. So I would find ways, like using the back edge of my sword, to smash the sharp edge of my opponents weapon to damage the edge.

I would also think that durign the heat of battle one or two, or even 10 edge on edge hits may not cause the blade to brake. The wielder would not be worrying about how many times he hit his edge, but he would be focused on his enimies. And.. his sword not only has a sharp edge, but also a serrated edge in certain places too. This would do more damage agaisnt a soft target I would think, but maybe not.

Is it possible that DaDao is marked that way from sparring or technique practice?

[Mimic]

Oh, I understand the theory, and I would follow it as well.

I am just saying with the utter chaos of wars fought in those times, especially pre 19th century when you had 100s, or possibly 1000s of warriors rushing each other at once, you are going to get your edge hit or you will hit it on another target. It's like jumping into the middle of one of those kids ball pits with multicolor balls and saying you are not going to touch a red ball.

The theory will find it's way into real world with even relatively little practice, as long as you pay mind to it.

I've been in european medieval warfare reenactment battles with several dozens of people and surely enough chaos, which is not to say thousands, but I believe there's enough people per square foot that more won't fit, so it's pretty good representation. Also true that it is not a battle for life and death, but then again, there's enough adrenaline (and testosterone) that simulates real situation rather well, and yes, pain is often involved, if not wounds. So, sure, accidents will happen and you might catch an edge block every now and then (in my case (I inspect my weapon after every battle and edge block leaves a mark even on dulled blade and yes, it is distinguishable from other guy blocking your strike with his edge) I would say I get 1 or 2 edge blocks every summer, that's about 12 to 15 mass battles. What I intended with all this ranting, is that proper deflections are doable even in chaos of mass combat, maybe not every peasant rebel would do it, but everyone with at least some experience would aim for it. Because even dao-fighting is never referred to as saw-fighting, at least I have never heard it. And edge blocking will convert your perfectly good sword to a saw REAL fast, even if the blade won't actually break.

Best regards,
Mimic

[Graham Cave]

An article in ARMA about edge/edge contact and blade damage:

Edge Damage on Swords

[Chris Fields]

great article. A lot of historical writings show what I thought. Meaning, yes, you don't want to block with your edge, but, yes, it will happen. And afterward your sword is ruined depending on the amount of damage.

[josh stout]

Hear is an example of some typical edge damage. The damage is near the tip and clearly was done with the back of a blade. In theory one should block as far up the opponent’s blade as possible, but in practice, the results tend to look like this, showing that the blocking was done to the tip. So in the heat of battle in this example, care was taken to block with the back, but staying away from the blade seems to have been a bigger priority than creating an entry for a strike.
Josh

http://s77.photobucket.com/albums/j65/p ... ion283.jpg