Jian vs. ___________

[xingyi24]

You are also correct, but I think we're talking past each other, so lets try to summarize.

1. All things are potential weapons.
2. Even though under American law 3 people can be called a mob, the press of the masses can overwhelm anyone if the masses are dedicated, however...
3. Even in fighting the masses a quick show of efficiency can, and frequently does, make an angry mob a scared mob, but...
4. The best thing to do in such a situation is to get out of Dodge, if the option is available, though it sometimes isn't.

Referring back to 3, it's a product of a rule our head has about danger, and sometimes it'd be nice to turn it off. It kind of says "If it just happened, it is probably going to happen again." This becomes a little sad/funny in the aftermath of an earthquake. People buy insurance, but then are more likely to let it lapse the longer it's been since an earthquake, when logically, the longer it's been, the more likely it is to happen again as the pressure builds. Have your brain tell that to your instincts, so 5. the best way to fight a mob, if you have to, is all at once, but fight thier head, not their body.

I think I'll go back in the future though to weapon options only in this post, because I think we are really getting beyond the scope now.

[J HepworthYoung]

I agree that defense against a crowd is against the odds, kind of like trying to use rollback on a car crashing into you.
There is a telling of musashi fairing well against a moderate crowd at some point, I have no idea of the actual details and versions vary.
I think he wrote of strategy against crowds out of experience, but he did not wield a jian.
Still large groups of people limit the individual motion of the people, it might make it more predictable, crowds can be funny things. But then this is all speculation.

Has anybody here practiced against 10+ duifang with assorted implements?

I am sure some of you have sparred with some type of SLO against two or three opponents, at what point does the number of opponents mandate running rather than facing?

[Linda Heenan]

We do train with 5 - 10 kids against one teenager, fairly frequently. It's a case of run away almost immediately and take hits at anyone you can reach to cut down the odds. You'd have to be an octopus with a weapon in each hand to come out on top in that situation. They come from all sides as well as from high and low. Some of them work in pairs "you distract him while I get him from behind". The longest lasting "heroes" in these games are the ones that find cover or take the high ground at the top of the steps where only a couple at a time can advance. If even one of those attackers had a pitchfork, that would be the end. You can't outreach a pitchfork with a jian, especially not when several people with shorter weapons are laying into you from all angles. It's pretty easy to set up - why not just go and try all these things out?

[xingyi24]

The best I've ever seen, in terms of the one man winning, was one on 8, against a variety of weapons, and he did exactly what she said to do. He ran in directions that put trees, exposed roots, signposts, and playground equipment in the way to keep cutting the group into small pieces, and he picked targets while on the retreat, and sometimes he'd throw an opponent back at the mob. He'd drive his opponent's weapon to the ground, grab him with his free hand about the elbow and unroot him. Of course this was done with a lot of room to run, and he spent most of his 30+ years focusing more on the broadsword than even empty hand. He only really spent time on other weapons to look for their flaws. That's why every time I practiced with him I knew I was his for the taking at will, and I still think that, when I did strike him, he let me, with maybe a few exceptions for human error. On the other hand, the mob knew they were not actually targets for death so we were dedicated. It was interesting to see the difference when we changed our motivation.

If the goal was presented as he is a target we cannot allow to get away, he cut right through us, because we had no choice but to persue.

If the goal was nobody was leaving until one side won, we fared better but still lost. It all came down to patience. He had more, and one of us lost patience and broke our tight defensive pattern, and we crumbled. Our short weapons got ahead of our long weapons somehow, destroying their advantage, and he had protection to get past the points; I assume he tangled us somehow that way.

When we were on the defensive we won, but he still got a few of us. We learned from the previous experience, kept our heads, and even managed to rotate in formation. I guess "in formation" kind of kills the mob violence we were discussing though.

This would never have worked in his favor in a tight area, but I think he could have beaten ten of us if he beat 8. It would have just taken some more yards worth of running.