How does the Taiji Swordsman initiate an attack?

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jonpalombi
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How does the Taiji Swordsman initiate an attack?

Post by jonpalombi » Tue Jun 05, 2007 9:19 pm

I often find myself hesitant, while bouting, to initiate an attack because it opens oneself up for counter attack. From the standpoint of European fencing, one feints an attack to bring the opponent into the mouse-trap of the second or third intention. Is it the same in historical Chinese swordsmanship? I always feel more comfortable responding to the initial attack of my duifang. I guess it's because it seems less risky. Am I being short-sighted? Should I initiate the attack to bring the duifang into my second or even third intention? It seems like an awful lot to think about when trying to be spontaneous. If so, which attacks are the most effective? I always lead with the Ci cut (mid-line thrust). Which invariably opens me up for a Pi cut. "Ouch!" Please elucidate upon this topic!

Yours in Martial Spirit, Jon Palombi

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Linda Heenan
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Try these for a start...

Post by Linda Heenan » Wed Jun 06, 2007 2:14 am

Well, Jon, you could just stand there and outwait the duifang, until he falls asleep - then get him :lol:

Seriously though, the first strike may be the only one, so why would you give up your advantage by letting the other guy go first? In a sense, It's good taijiquan to move off whatever the duifang gives you but if no one moves nothing is going to happen.

Let's say you are both standing there with swords touching, and neither close enough to quite reach the other. Your first problem is how to get the duifang's sword out of the way for long enough for your strike to be effective. It's no good just taking a wild swing or thrust and leaving yourself open. You have to get him moving.

A feint is worth trying. Do something uncommitted that might cause an inexperienced duifang to react, then follow up on his action. If he isn't moving, and you really want to start with Ci, try slipping the blade underneath and to the other side of his, and taking a half step in. As long as you can keep your tip online, you have him. Or, you could try a quick turn of the wrist into Mo and stepping in. If you have your timing right, you can use Ya, with the stronger part of your blade against his weaker ... use snapping leverage and send Hua over the top.

Why don't you try frustrating him by stepping out of range and disengaging. See if you can annoy him enough, by continually doing that, to make him throw some wild, unthought out strike in your direction, deflect it and get him :wink:

Or you could deliberately open yourself to a strike in a planned "come and get me" fashion. As he does, counter and take him. While we're at it, try various trickery ... circle him around until he is face into the sun for example, or say something distracting.

One of my favourites is the quick Pi to the top of the hand. If you're fast enough, he won't know what happened until he feels it.

If your duifang is half asleep, you should be able to turn the blade up and step in to his centre, circling into Liao as you do so.

Or begin with a circling Pi, using it as a quick deflection. If he steps back, follow up with another strike - perhaps the classic Pi, Dian, Tiao combo.

Your beginning is only limited by imagination and experience. Try a few new things and see what works for you. Have fun :)

Linda

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Re: How does the Taiji Swordsman initiate an attack?

Post by Scott M. Rodell » Wed Jun 06, 2007 8:26 am

jonpalombi wrote:... initiate an attack because it opens oneself up for counter attack.. Should I initiate the attack to bring the duifang into my second or even third intention?...
Instead of answering with possible first move techniques, allow me to address this question from the stand point of taijiquan principles: The Song of Push Hands treatise explains that we should "stick adhere join follow," in Mandarin these four characters arezhan lian nien sui. They refer to sticking & following in a passive manner, that is when your duifang initiates an attack & you move with it, leading it off line & into a position where you can counter as part of that deflecting movement & in an active manner where you intuit where your duifang is open, & where his or her center line is, so that your attack is both difficult to deflect & quite effective when it lands.

In relation to swordplay, this means that in order to initiate an attack, that is actively stick & follow, you should intuit where that line is. If your duifang is standing in a perfect postions, without any "hollows or protrusions" then you might have to move slight, this way or that, "looking" for the point where he or she does offer you a line in. If you attack along one of these lines, you will be moving in from a position that your duifang can not repsond to immediately. Given that your duifang will have to shift his or her postion in order to respond to your forward movement, you will have had gained time on him or her. If you are fast enough, he or she will not be able to both avoid your cut & counter. Naturally, the lines are always changing, so once your duifang does start to move, continue to stick & follow for what you called the second & third intention.

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jonpalombi
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Re: How does the Taiji Swordsman initiate an attack?

Post by jonpalombi » Thu Jun 07, 2007 5:35 pm

Scott M. Rodell wrote: In relation to swordplay, this means that in order to initiate an attack, that is actively stick & follow, you should intuit where that line is. If your duifang is standing in a perfect positions, without any "hollows or protrusions" then you might have to move slight, this way or that, "looking" for the point where he or she does offer you a line in. Naturally, the lines are always changing, so once your duifang does start to move, continue to stick & follow for what you called the second & third intention.
I guess, when I gain more experience, I will come to intuit the line of my duifang. You see, unless they are also novice swords-persons, I can't see that line until we start moving. Which, I think, is what you are alluding to. Which are the best cuts to initiate this movement? Or is stepping the logical way to start things moving? Sometimes it seems like we are all snapping lightning-fast pi cuts, being countered by tiao cuts under the sword wrist. Is this what you referred to as "monkey" swordsmanship?
A wise person aspires to learn the practice of swordsmanship. A lucky person finds a worthy Teacher. A fool cannot tell the difference.

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