On Basket hilts and weapon evolution

Discussion of Chinese historical swordsmanship from all styles.

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B.Ko
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On Basket hilts and weapon evolution

Post by B.Ko » Wed May 16, 2007 12:21 am

In drilling with my Sihing, I noticed how often we would aim quick long range cuts at our exposed hands holding the jian.

It got me thinking of the complex basket hilts of European swords as well as some that had a shell in addition to very long cross hilt pieces as well. Would such hilts make many of the tiao and other hand cuts in Chinese Swordsmanship obsolete or at least very difficult to pull off successfully.

In comparing the size of the guard in Chinese swords vs. European swords one is immediately struck by the relatively small size of guard on Chinese swords.

It's interesting to compare the relatively stability of Jian blade profiles throughout time vs. the much more diverse blade and hilt profiles of Western swords over time.

josh stout
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Post by josh stout » Wed May 16, 2007 9:45 am

I have often wondered as well why jian do not give more hand protection. My personal theory is that European swords were made to either fight one person in front, or with others in a battle line. The jian on the other hand seems to be a weapon where many of the moves are designed for dealing with large masses pressing in from all sides. The small guard allows the sword to be maneuvered close to the body and easily switched into backhand grips. A European rapier would quickly become useless in such a situation. I suspect that the change in forms found in European swords is due in small part to changes in forging and in large part to changes in use. Battlefield weapons transitioned into personal dueling weapons. Jian on the other hand seem to have been made with good sanmai steel from the beginning, and their usefulness against crowds would not have changed much. One can see changes in the blade from heavy Ming and early Qing battlefield jian into lighter personal defense items, but as you say the basic shape did not change much.
Josh
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Scott M. Rodell
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Re: On Basket hilts and weapon evolution

Post by Scott M. Rodell » Wed May 16, 2007 11:15 am

B.Ko wrote:... drilling with my Sihing... noticed.. often we would aim quick long range cuts at our exposed hands holding the jian...
I've always wondered why swords of all nations & times didn't have more hand protection? It seems amazing to me that only the Scottish came up with the basket hlit. The only observation I can make is that it has been my experience that as one's skill developes, one no longer gets hit on the hand, or at least not frequently... Those who are getting caught on the fingers by the tiao should use either ya or a beat in response to that attack.

When I was in Australia, two years back, I visited a teacher of Scottish Swordsmanship, one Paul Wagner (see the thread: SFI Thread: Cross Sparring with Chinese Swordsmanship viewtopic.php?t=203). He gave me a very useful lesson in British Military Swordsmanship & then we had a friendly bout. After the first few, fast exchanges, neither of us had landed a blow & had squared off. I thought, let me try the tiao to his fingers... sure enough I was fast enough to get in & tiao, right into the underside of Paul's basket hilt as he proceeded to cut the down onto the top of my forearm. He didn't bother to move his hand one bit, he had no need to. I have to admit, I felt quite foolish & had to laugh. There is no such finger protection on Chinese swords...

B.Ko
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Post by B.Ko » Wed May 16, 2007 12:01 pm

I have thought about how many CMA practioners I've talked to always talk about how skill will negate the danger of certain attacks.

I love CMA and am Chinese myself but I also recognize the powerful effects of chance and luck on even the most skillful. That's why even though the jian is my favorite sword, I have to admire the thought and strategy that went into the design of Western swords with more substantial hand protection.

Just imagine, if we were still using swords to keep us alive a sword with the balance and lightness of a jian with a basket hilt.

What would be more interesting are the changes to the art itself such a change would create.

Kyro R. Lantsberger
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I like this

Post by Kyro R. Lantsberger » Sun May 20, 2007 9:33 am

This is the type of situation I have thought about a great deal.

I think this line of thinking brings up cultural factors beyond technical martial arts.

European societies developed boyer/burgher classes to whom duelling for honor or judicially was a way of life. This created a great number and variety of techniques and weapons. Chinese culture in this area did not develop in the same way.

Fascinating thoughts, though.

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Post by Scott M. Rodell » Sun May 20, 2007 11:14 am

B.Ko wrote:I... imagine, if we were still using swords to keep us alive a sword with the balance and lightness of a jian with a basket hilt...
Doesn't sound bad, but don't forget, that during the Qing, the armored sleeves of either full dingjia (brigindine armor), or even just the padded layer of the gambinson worn underneath, had a horse hoof shaped cuff that covered the back of the hand the fingers from the knuckles to the first jiont of the fingers. This cuff was held in place by a loop at the end of the cuff that one's second finger went thru. These cuffs didn't protect the thumb, but they didn't protect most of the hand & fingers.

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