Sword Grips

tatsu · Post by **tatsu** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 9:49 pm

A subtle suggestion I got from Scott when asking him about a sword I was thinking about purchasing, was when I asked him about holding the sword in a certain way

The way that my sifu teaches is that we hold the handle at the top of the sword, with the 3rd-5th fingers holding the handle itself, with the thumb and 2nd finger gripping at the guard. This is, apparently, for more flexibility of the wrist, allowing for greater control and movement for the sword. I thought this unusual at first, but gradually after about a month i've gotten used to it... I've questioned it a couple of times, but I was just wondering what you all thought about it...?

josh stout · Post by **josh stout** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 10:18 am

I am not sure what grip you are talking about. Are you talking about the grip that Scott teaches?

There is more than one way that jian were held traditionally, but there are more wrong ways than there are right ways.
Josh

Scott M. Rodell · Post by **Scott M. Rodell** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 10:19 am

josh stout wrote:I am not sure what grip you are talking about. Are you talking about the grip that Scott teaches?...

No it is a different grip, more later...

josh stout · Post by **josh stout** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 11:27 am

Is this the grip?
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j65/p ... ccfc_o.jpg

This is from a Ming painting at the Freer gallery in DC.
Josh

Scott M. Rodell · Post by **Scott M. Rodell** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 2:24 pm

tatsu wrote:... we hold the handle at the top of the sword, with the 3rd-5th fingers holding the handle itself, with the thumb and 2nd finger gripping at the guard... apparently, for more flexibility of the wrist, allowing for greater control and movement for the sword... just wondering what you all thought about it...?

In short, I have no question at all that, in a real bout, you would get your finger crushed & probably broken. All areas of the sword arm & hand are primary targets. Placing your fingers on the sides of the guard will indeed provide for excellent edge control, but sacrifices safety to an unacceptable level. The guard is, afterall, there to protect your fingers & wrist. Aside from the obvious risks of this fingers on guard grip, it should be noted that this is also an unnecessary risk because there are grips that are as safe as a grip can be, that also provide perfect edge control.

Such grips (I've seen others) are sometimes used by those who practice forms alone, but they are an example of how sword practice today is great need of a reality check. Knowing how easy it is to cut off an arm or leg, I sure wouldn't but something as skinny as a finger anywhere near where it could be cut.

tatsu · Post by **tatsu** » Sat Apr 14, 2007 12:21 am

Considering the conventional way you'd hold a sword, if someone were cut the finger that was around the guard, wouldn't he just be able to angle the blade slightly more downwards, and that way he could get at the hand anyway? I mean, yes, it does present a target, but no more a target then the hand would normally be?

Josh - ummmz, i can't quite see the finger position on that painting, but if i can get some fotos maybe online, i'll try and post them here...if you imagine the sword with the flat facing up, holding the sword with the right hand, palm upwards, the thumb (on top) and 1st finger holding the guard, and the other fingers at the top/middle of the handle.

Scott M. Rodell · Post by **Scott M. Rodell** » Sat Apr 14, 2007 7:48 am

tatsu wrote:Considering the conventional way you'd hold a sword, if someone were cut the finger that was around the guard, wouldn't he just be able to angle the blade slightly more downwards, and that way he could get at the hand anyway? I mean, yes, it does present a target, but no more a target then the hand would normally be?...

No, actually not. If one's overall postion (basic stance) is correct, a blow angled down at the top of the hand will hit the guard, where as if it even hit the guard & glanced off it would likely bisect the index finger using the grip you suggest. I'm not trying to run you down, I'm just trying to save you a hard (read painful) lesson. As I said earlier, I've seen grips like this before, those guys always got their fingers bashed.

tatsu · Post by **tatsu** » Sun Apr 15, 2007 8:00 pm

I haven't yet spoken to my sifu or instructors yet about it, but they're both fairly adamant that this particular grip is what we're sticking with.... and i'm in complete agreement with you Scott, cutting would be absolutely nasty with that grip, so i'll definitely ask about that next time I go to class

In defense of it though, I think that maybe with the better wrist fluidity, disengages might be a solution to perhaps the opponent sliding their blade down to try and lop off the index finger...?

Just a suggestion, and there was never any offense taken

Mimic · Post by **Mimic** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 1:31 am

josh stout wrote:Is this the grip?
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j65/p ... ccfc_o.jpg

In the light of the discussion, note that this jian on the painting has special finger protection 'ring', similar to european swords that used such grip. Thus, a bit different weapon.

Best regards,
Hendrik

tatsu · Post by **tatsu** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 3:08 am

Ahhhh, yeh, I see what you mean Mimic... I had to zoom in and notice it a little more clearly...

With that, it appears as if the finger were resting on top of a circular/disc shaped guard you'd more likely to see on a dao rather than jian, so I suppose I should say, the finger and thumb grip the sides of the guard (as opposed to on top), and the guard would be more flat, such as on the royal peony jian from huanuo...

Btw, just as a side note, does anyone know anything about this swordmaker?

http://www.enlightenmentswords.com/

I was looking around for anyone who's bought any of their swords and read their opinions but so far no luck

josh stout · Post by **josh stout** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 12:25 pm

Mimic wrote:
josh stout wrote:Is this the grip?
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j65/p ... ccfc_o.jpg

In the light of the discussion, note that this jian on the painting has special finger protection 'ring', similar to european swords that used such grip. Thus, a bit different weapon.

Best regards,
Hendrik

I am not so sure that there is a protection ring on the guard. Someone said something similar on another forum, but I think what you see is a cord or part of the clothing. Notice how it continues below the guard. Ming style jian never have a finger protector ring as far as I know. I also think the guard shape is a typical Ming style jian guard. I don't think it is possible to wrap a finger around a disk shaped guard. Someone may want to go to the exhibit and see for themselves.

No matter what you see, there is certainly a finger over the guard in a Ming period illustration. Now, lets think about that in the context of what Scott has said. I have no doubt whatsoever of Scott’s experience or training, so we have to assume that it is indeed a very bad idea to put ones finger over the guard. So what is going on?

In my lineage, the finger points down the blade when thrusting, but stays behind the guard the rest of the time. I have talked to other lineages with similar techniques. In the painting, the water god has just thrust into what looks like a demon. It could be that the finger has just finished pointing. Another possibility is that the water god is holding the guard in just the manner being discussed, for the advantages discussed, but he doesn't plan to leave it there. Part of the philosophy of the jian is changing the grip rather than using a big guard. If there were never any changes in grip, I suspect jian would have guards that gave more substantial protection. In general, some protection has been sacrificed for versatility.

Josh

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