UK Offensive Weapons Consultation

Discussion of Chinese historical swordsmanship from all styles.

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Conal
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Post by Conal » Fri Jan 11, 2008 4:41 am

andiS wrote: (or am I just being cynical).
Not where this UK government is concerned;

Guns Banned ; Gun crime goes up.
Knives banned ; Knife crime goes up.


If they ban swords , what do you think will happen?

The cudos of owning & brandishing a banned weapon :shock:
"Do or do not, there is no Try"
Yoda

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Graham Cave
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Post by Graham Cave » Sun Mar 02, 2008 4:46 pm

The Token Society of Great Britain have the latest news from the Home Office.

It does indeed appear that any curved sword with a blade length of 50 cm or over is now going to be banned from sale, hire, manufacture or import in the UK. There are exemptions but without proper legal interpretation, it is not clear how this will affect Chinese swords.

This will come into force on 6th April 2008.

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Linda Heenan
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Exemption Defenses

Post by Linda Heenan » Sun Mar 02, 2008 5:44 pm

There are exemptions that will work for Chinese swordsmanship under point 5. Swords otherwise banned may be used for reenactment and sporting activities. We have one state in Australia that has a similar but even less defined ban than yours - Victoria. I carry my European reenactment membership card with me, which provides exemption for the NVG group, even in Victoria. If you have the opportunity to register your group under reenactment or get your public liability insurance under a sporting group, it may be all that is necessary as a defense.

I am in the process of considering a Reenactment registration for our branch of GRTC here in Australia.

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Post by andiS » Mon Mar 03, 2008 5:06 am

I think this is a classic case of a government wanting to be seen to take action, rather than to take effective action.

There are loads of opportunities here for photos of cheap Japanese swords being crushed the same way there was of handguns being destroyed after the handgun ban: and of course that was so successful that we don't have any gun crime now and small kids can play in the streets without the risk of being shot by gangsters.

There is that definition of of re-enactment and sporting activities - but no sign of how they're going to define that. We are a small rural Tai Chi club, we don't compete at anything, we have no wider aims, we just meet in the village hall to practice our art. Are we automatically going to be exempted? Is my membership of the Tai Chi Union of GB going to be enough? At the moment I only train with a wooden sword, but one day I'd like to move up to a 'live' one - how is that going to happen.

The other thing here which is being missed is that counter to the whole history of UK law I am going to have to prove that I am not guilty of anything - what happened to me being having a right to be presumed innocent until the law proves otherwise?

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Graham Cave
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Post by Graham Cave » Mon Mar 03, 2008 6:22 am

Something that the Home Office has neglected to address is that reproduction Japanese swords are available with straight blades. In other words, the Government has failed in its objective of banning all 'samurai swords' but has succeeded in banning many other types of sword which have not been implicated in violent crime. Even more astonishing is that all this seems contrary to the findings of the consultation paper where the majority of public responses did not appear to favour any ban at all.

Perhaps more baffling still, are the stated exceptions for swords:
made in Japan before 1954 / made in Japan at any other time according to traditional methods of forging swords
There is no mention of exemptions for antique swords from any other country - including those from the UK. The Home Office definition of permitted activity is:
an historical re-enactment or a sporting activity
As museum display does not fall into the category of permitted activity, are museums now to be prevented from acquiring any curved sword that is not of Japanese origin?

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Post by Graham Cave » Wed Mar 05, 2008 7:13 am

We now have a bit more information from the Government: Explanatory Memorandum

Perhaps Chinese swords will be unaffected after all:
4.2 This instrument adds swords with a curved blade of 50 centimetres or over in length to the 1988 Order. These swords are commonly known as “samurai swords”. The Government accepts that there are certain legitimate uses of such swords and so the instrument provides for certain defences to the offences under section 141 and section 50 mentioned above. The 1988 Order itself already contains an exemption from these offences for antique weapons which are over 100 years old.
I don't suppose that we can be 100% sure until we see the ban being implemented.

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Post by Brett » Tue Apr 08, 2008 11:12 am

I'm reposting some details here from the CSSUK forum. Apologies for cross posting, but I thought some of you may be interested who aren't active on CSSUK.

This ban is now in effect, and applies to ALL swords over 50cm in length, with a curved blade, so dao are included.

**********

I've been emailing with Jonathan Batt at the Public Order and Offensives Weapons section of the Public Order Unit, trying to get some clarification on the ban, and how it will affect us. He has been very patient and helpful. He also said that we could make representations, to either the public order unit, or to our MPs, to try and get a similar exclusion for Chinese Swords made in China to Japanese ones, but I'm not sure how much luck we would have.

Aside from that, as things stand now, to get exemption as martial artists/re-enactors, you need to be a member of a recognised society that has public liability insurance. The burden of proof lies with the shopkeeper - they are the ones in trouble if they sell a sword to someone who does not have such proof. Mr Batt suggested that a membership card, and a copy of your society's insurance would be enough to purchase the sword, legally.

if you were to import a sword, and it was stopped by customs, providing the same proof, of membership and the club insurance, would be an acceptible defence, and you would get your sword back.

Quoting from Mr Batt's email to me (with his permission):

Contained in the Order which was laid in Parliament on 27 February
banning swords with a curved blade of over 50 centimetres in length,
were defences for collectors, martial artists and those who partake in
historical re-enactments. The defence for martial artist and
re-enactors is that if they want to buy a sword with the above
definition after 6 April 2008, they would need to satisfy the retailer
that they belong to a genuine club or organisation which has third party
liability insurance.

In practice, the public liability insurance will be held by the martial
arts club or re-enactment society with the aim of the defence being that
the insurance covers any liabilities that the club or society has to
participants if they are injured in connection with the organisation and
holding of such an activity. The insurance does not have to cover
situations where one participant is injured by another for which the
club or society has no liability. The definition of "third parties" is
the same as that used in the context of realistic imitation firearms in
the Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006 therefore we are following this
precedent of what is a working defence.

We envisage that a shop keeper would need to satisy themselves that any
person wishing to buy a sword with a curved blade of over 50 centimetres
in length after 6 April 2008 meets the criteria of one of the defences
in the Order covering collectors, martial artists and historical
re-enactors. For martial artists and re-enactors, this could be a
membership card of a genuine club or organisation plus/or a copy of that
club or organisation's public liability insurance. The onus would be on
the shopkeeper as it would be them committing the offence if sell to
wrong person and not the buyer.

END of quote:

Antiques are a completely separate issue. The offensive weapons act does not apply to any weapon over 100 years old, and hence these are not covered by the ban.

**********
Hope that helps clarify some of the problems we are now facing in the UK.

Brett

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Post by Graham Cave » Wed Jul 23, 2008 4:30 am

There is some good news here in the UK. The Home Office has been listening to the cries of the sword enthusiasts and has decided to amend the Criminal justice act accordingly.

It will now be a defence if:
"the weapon in question was made before 1954 or was made at any other time according to traditional methods of making swords by hand."
In other words antique Chinese swords will be legal again and so will traditionally made reproductions of Chinese swords. However, if anyone wants to purchase a bad fake off the web or a cheap, floppy wushu sabre, then they will still need to register as a re-enactor or martial artist beforehand.

It must also be noted that it will be up to the individual to prove that a given sword was made before 1954 or to traditional methods. Failure to do so may result in the sword being seized.

The Criminal Justice Act 1988 (Offensive Weapons) (Amendment No. 2) Order 2008

There is no date given for this amendment coming into force.

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