Junzi Jian, Book on Shuangshoujian

[Scott M. Rodell]

Lion Books of Taiwan reprints old classic Chinese martial arts manuals, many of which are available from http://www.plumpub.com/. Recently I pruchased a reprint of Junzi Jian or Nobleman's Jian (pictured above) by Jin Yiming, that was orginally published in 1930.

According to the orginal preface, Jin studied shaolinquan, wudang arts, taijiquan, xingyiquan, & baguazhang. He also was an instructor at the Central Goushu Acdemy in Nanjing at the time & was involved in the preservation of historical martial arts material.

Anyone who can read Chinese or has access to some one who can translate for them, will find this book a worthwhile addition to his or her library. I'll add a few notes below of things I found interesting in Junzi Jian.

[Scott M. Rodell]

One of the most interesting things about Junzi Jian is that the illustrations are very close to, almost exactly the same as, those of Shuangshoujian (two-handed straight sword) in the Ming dynasty edition of the Wubeizhi (pictured above). Though the book provides no details as to where the techniques discuss within orginated, it would seem that this text is the author's interpertation of this Ming dynasty jian form.

Junzi Jian also lists 13 Basic Shuangshoujian Cuts:
Chou, Draw Cut
Dai, Carry
Ti, Lift
Ge, Block
Ji, Strike
Ci, Thrust
Dian, Point
Beng, Explode
Jiao, Stir
Ya, Press Down
Pi, Split
Jie, Intercept
Xi, Wash

Interestingly, these are the same basic cuts the Yang Family Manuals list of as the basic cuts of the public Yangshi Taiji Jian.

[Scott M. Rodell]

One other interesting detail bought to light by this old text is the difference between the grip used for the Shuangshou Jian Vs. that of the Shuangshou Dao.

In the case of the Shuangshou Dao the hands grip the handle with space between them as seen in this Ming dynasty manual:


Note in the images of Shuangshou Jian above that the hands are gripping the Jian's hilt so closely together that they are touching.

[Linda Heenan]

Is the right hand always forward, near the hilt, in a two handed style such as these? Does that change if the swordsman is left handed? Some two handed styles of swordsmanship such as katana, have the forward hand acting as a fulcrum, while the rear hand, towards the pommel, actually directs the strike. I see this in the circular beat move in the miaodao form. Is it a generally used technique throughout Chinese two handed swordsmanship?

[Scott M. Rodell]

I should preface any response I give by saying that very little is known about Chinese Histoical Two-handed swordsmanship. It has been a fairly minor tradition in China since the Tang dynasty. To my knowledge, there is next to no one practicing Chinese Two-handed Swordsmanship & only a few efw schools keeping up the a few forms. So my answers are based on available information, but that pool of information is, unfortunately small...

Is the right hand always forward, near the hilt, in a two handed style such as these? Does that change if the swordsman is left handed?

Yes & yes. However, I can see where it would be very useful to know how to switch-up hands & indeed some styles of jian swordsmanship do have techniques where the jian is switched to the left hand.

Some two handed styles of swordsmanship... have the forward hand acting as a fulcrum, while the rear hand, towards the pommel, actually directs the strike... a generally used technique throughout Chinese two handed swordsmanship?

This is common in Shuangshou Dao, where the hands are positioned with space between them, but does not seem to generally true for the Shuangshou Jian where the hands are close together, even touching.

[Scott M. Rodell]

Several Mantis schools have maintained Shuangshou Jian forms, for one example, please see:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOXPZLHpn8M

One curious aspect of the way this form is preformed is how he switches to a single hand grip. That would be quite difficult to do with any of the three antique shuangshou jian I've handled, they were just too long & heavy. Note he is using a light "wushu" weight shuangshou jian for this preformance.

[Seitch]

Is it possible to use a shuangshou jian such as the two handed ShiTan jian from Zhengwutang for Yang style taichi sword practice?

[Scott M. Rodell]

... possible to use a shuangshou jian... for Yang style taichi sword practice?

I would say generally not, shuangshou jian are generally too long & heavy to be used with control, or in some cases at all, with just one hand.

... a shuangshou jian such as the two handed ShiTan jian from Zhengwutang... ?

I haven't handled their Shitan Jian, but I've handled several other of their Jian with similar length blades & hilts & they are not Shuangshou Jian.

The Shuangshou Jian pictured in Junzi Jian is consistantly 70% the height of the man who is weilding it. If the average Chinese man was about 1.7 M. then the Shuangshou Jian pictured would have been about 1.2 M (3' 11") long overall, with a blade length of approximately 1 M (39-40").

Huanuo's Shuangshou Jian (pictured below) has a .93 M (36 1/2") blade & is 1.2 M. (4') long overall, so it is very close in six to the Shuangshou Jian pictured in Junzi Jian. It weights 1.3 Kg. (2 lb. 13 oz.).

[Seitch]

... possible to use a shuangshou jian... for Yang style taichi sword practice?

I would say generally not, shuangshou jian are generally too long & heavy to be used with control, or in some cases at all, with just one hand.

... a shuangshou jian such as the two handed ShiTan jian from Zhengwutang... ?

I haven't handled their Shitan Jian, but I've handled several other of their Jian with similar length blades & hilts & they are not Shuangshou Jian.

The Shuangshou Jian pictured in Junzi Jian is consistantly 70% the height of the man who is weilding it. If the average Chinese man was about 1.7 M. then the Shuangshou Jian pictured would have been about 1.2 M (3' 11") long overall, with a blade length of approximately 1 M (39-40").

Huanuo's Shuangshou Jian (pictured below) has a .93 M (36 1/2") blade & is 1.2 M. (4') long overall, so it is very close in six to the Shuangshou Jian pictured in Junzi Jian. It weights 1.3 Kg. (2 lb. 13 oz.).

Thanks for the info Scott! When I finally do purchase a jian, I guess I'll stick to the single-handed versions because I definitely want to practice with it.

[Scott M. Rodell]

Wudang war-swordplay Video with basic cuts common to most types of Chinese Swordsmanship, ci, pi, liao (also called hui in shuangshoudao forms) & ji. Fr example, all these cuts are contained in the Silu Miaodao form.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uP32brEuhCg

[Scott M. Rodell]

Those interested in this topic might like to cross reference with the thread:

Long Handled vs. Two-Handed Jian
viewtopic.php?p=2558#2558

[josh stout]

Wudang war-swordplay Video with basic cuts common to most types of Chinese Swordsmanship, ci, pi, liao (also called hui in shuangshoudao forms) & ji. Fr example, all these cuts are contained in the Silu Miaodao form.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uP32brEuhCg

It looks like the hands are close together for fast cuts in a series, but apart for slower more powerful cuts.
Josh

[Scott M. Rodell]

When I first looked at the Junzi Jian I suspected that this was a reprint of the Shuangshou Jian as illustrated in the Wubeizhi. Turns out I was correct. I finally got my hands on some pages of the Second Volume of the Wubeizhi, which feature weapons forms and found the postures/basic cuts listed in the Junzi Jian & their descriptions there word for word.

Here are some pages from the Wubeizhi showing the Shuangshou Jian-

[Scott M. Rodell]

... Junzi Jian .. a reprint of the Shuangshou Jian as illustrated in the Wubeizhi...

One can find a all the complete, original Shuangshou Jian manual, as depicted in the Wubeizhi here-
http://tieba.baidu.com/f?kz=179142205

[Scott M. Rodell]

Several Mantis schools have maintained Shuangshou Jian forms...

Shaolin - Two Handled Sword - 01 Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xsn_s7Z9 ... re=related