The Big Beat
Moderator:Scott M. Rodell
In the Yang Family Michuan Jian form we have the big circular beats, where you beat the duifang's. blade out of the way. I can understand its use as an inellegant last ditch manuever, but it just doesn't seem very graceful to me. It has the feeling of force on force. Are there any analogous movements in the empty hand forms? What are people's thoughts on the Big Beat?
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Scott M. Rodell
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It's true that the large circular upward beating movements, tiao, in the Michuan Jian form are not very elegant, but they are effective.
Let's look at where they are in the form. These big movements are always employed when the tip of one's jian is low & the blade is effectively out of play so far as using the blade flat to deflect to the side is concerned, such as when one has just attempted a dou cut or long outstreched ci. These attacks are both useful, but if nuetralized, leave one in a vulnerable postion. With one's jian in this low postion, there isn't much else to do to deflect other than beat the attacking weapon upward forcefully. So while it lacks grace, it works quite well.
This upward beating movement does not have a parrallel in the hand techniques of taijiquan. It does however fit perfectly with the princples set forth in the Yang Family Treatises. Everyone will recall where is states, "finding soft be cautious, finding hardness release your power." In other words, you can fajin into anything that is hard. You can push a stiff arm to the side to shake a duifang off balance when he tries to grab you. It is equally correct to beat a duifang's weapon off line or out of his hand, when it's thrusting toward you. It does not please the eye the way a smooth deflection that causes your duifang to hang himself on the end of your jian does, but it is every bit as good principled taijiquan.
Taijiquan has moved so far from its roots as a martial art that there is a tendency to view this art in overly idealistic terms. It is true that there are many movements in various forms that don't seem to embody the spirit of yielding & nuetralizing that is viewed as the epitome of taijiquan today. However, we should keep in mind that Yang Luchan must have recorded every single movement in each form for a reason. If the Founder choose to include a technique in a form, we should seek to understand it according to all the principles set down for us in the classics, not just the princples we are most philosophically comfortable with.
Keep in mind, the Yang Family Michuan forms we practice date from the period when Yang Luchan & his son's worked as military trainers. I'm sure their focus was on effectiveness & not on easing the stress of the 9 to 5 grind.
Let's look at where they are in the form. These big movements are always employed when the tip of one's jian is low & the blade is effectively out of play so far as using the blade flat to deflect to the side is concerned, such as when one has just attempted a dou cut or long outstreched ci. These attacks are both useful, but if nuetralized, leave one in a vulnerable postion. With one's jian in this low postion, there isn't much else to do to deflect other than beat the attacking weapon upward forcefully. So while it lacks grace, it works quite well.
This upward beating movement does not have a parrallel in the hand techniques of taijiquan. It does however fit perfectly with the princples set forth in the Yang Family Treatises. Everyone will recall where is states, "finding soft be cautious, finding hardness release your power." In other words, you can fajin into anything that is hard. You can push a stiff arm to the side to shake a duifang off balance when he tries to grab you. It is equally correct to beat a duifang's weapon off line or out of his hand, when it's thrusting toward you. It does not please the eye the way a smooth deflection that causes your duifang to hang himself on the end of your jian does, but it is every bit as good principled taijiquan.
Taijiquan has moved so far from its roots as a martial art that there is a tendency to view this art in overly idealistic terms. It is true that there are many movements in various forms that don't seem to embody the spirit of yielding & nuetralizing that is viewed as the epitome of taijiquan today. However, we should keep in mind that Yang Luchan must have recorded every single movement in each form for a reason. If the Founder choose to include a technique in a form, we should seek to understand it according to all the principles set down for us in the classics, not just the princples we are most philosophically comfortable with.
Keep in mind, the Yang Family Michuan forms we practice date from the period when Yang Luchan & his son's worked as military trainers. I'm sure their focus was on effectiveness & not on easing the stress of the 9 to 5 grind.
The Big Beat
Scott M. Rodell wrote:Keep in mind, the Yang Family Michuan forms we practice date from the period when Yang Luchan & his son's worked as military trainers. I'm sure their focus was on effectiveness & not on easing the stress of the 9 to 5 grind.
Hi Scott, I don't know if this is the proper forum but could you please say a bit more about this?
I'v seen some similitudes between Yangjia Michuan and Li Zheng training forms. Li Zheng is a Fou Chou's descendant, an imperial disciple of Yang Lu Chan.
regards
Vincenzo
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Scott M. Rodell
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Re: The Big Beat
To start with, I'm sure we could find a good number of similarities in technique between the Yangjia Michuan Taiji Jian & many other systems of Chinese jian swordsmanship. Afterall, there are only so many ways that one can use a straight double edged sword & the Yang Family did not develope their art in a vaccum. I noticed quite a few similarities between the Michuan jian form & the Qimen jian form that is said to come from General Qi Jiguang of the late Ming dynasty.vincenzo wrote:...similitudes between Yangjia Michuan and Li Zheng training forms...
Given the violent times & the nature of things in the martial arts world of the period Ynag Luchan developed his art, I'm sure he did not make any notes as to where each technique in any form orginated. We can be sure that his taijiquan is based on arts that came before his time. Recognizing this, what is important for us practicing this art is remember that while techniques may be quite similiar, or even the same, the way we use our bodies, our mind intent, the spirit of tajiquan is quite different than other arts. Let us not confuse technique with principles.
Vincenzo- I'm not familiar with Li, could you please provide us with more detail?vincenzo wrote:...Li Zheng is a Fou Chou's descendant, an imperial disciple of Yang Lu Chan.
Re: The Big Beat
Scott M. Rodell wrote:I'm not familiar with Li, could you please provide us with more detail?
Hi, scott
I don't know so much about him.
Being interested in the historical side of Taijiquan and knowing that Yang Lu Chan and his sons codified different kind of form in different periods I was trying to understand the origin of Yangjia Michuan forms (empty hand too). A friend of mine who live in China spoke me about Fu-Lei Taiji Stlyle who is one of the main Yang-style which has a frequent 3/7 weight distribution with the heel of the empty foot up.
Li Zheng teaches Fu-Lei Taijiquan in Baoding (Hebei) and his lineage derive from Fou Chou who studied with Yang Lu Chan in the imperial court. There were some clips about Laojia, Zhi Chui and Big Frame on his site but at the moment the only viewble is the second one http://www.zhtj.com/images/mtv/jq.gif.
regards
Vincenzo