Jian verses rope dart and/or meteor hammer

J HepworthYoung · Post by **J HepworthYoung** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 9:13 am

Is the jian viable against long range weapons such as these?

Scott M. Rodell · Post by **Scott M. Rodell** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 10:53 am

Actually, I think its more a question of whether these weapons are viable. If they were very effective weapons, they would have been in wide spread use, common to many systems. Instead, its hard to find anyone who even knows a rope dart form let alone how they would actually be used.

Think about it, when you were a kid, perhaps you where in some fight where another kid threw a rock or rocks at you? Did any of them hit? Its pretty easy to dodge stuff being thrown at you & it doesn't take long to close the distance & reply with your blade's edge.

J HepworthYoung · Post by **J HepworthYoung** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 3:12 pm

If they were very effective weapons, they would have been in wide spread use, common to many systems.

Can they be effective weapons, but have drawbacks and limitations?

One limitation might be that some weapons are effective without skill gained from considerable practice, while in the hands of the inexperienced they may even work against their users. To simply pick up a meteor hammer or rope dart and try to use it would be impractical and even foolish, other weapons can be brandished more easily by the uninitiated.

In south america a weapon very much like the meteor hammer was used to kill jaguar by crushing the skull, this was the single ball bola.

Rope darts and flex impact weapons can have a much higher rate of speed, might dodging them be more dodging a whip than a rock?

As a kid I recall rocks being dangerous, distracting and not always being dodged so well. At long range they were impractical but at close range they were more dangerous.

josh stout · Post by **josh stout** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 1:51 pm

I don't know any primary sources on this topic, but I have heard stories of the Japanese police using chain weapons against rogue ronin, and the Chinese Imperial guards using chain whips as a way to avoid spilling blood on the Imperial grounds.

I have been practicing with an antique chain whip for a little over a year now, and I am definitely more of a danger to inanimate objects and myself than I would be against a skilled adversary. The antique is shorter (about 1/2) than the modern ones and much faster due to the conservation of angular momentum. If I hadn't wrapped one end in tape I would probably be brain damaged. The chain can lock on steel as well as being quite formidable as a striking weapon. The disadvantage of a chain whip seems to be it is fully committed and difficult to stop in mid swing. This could give a skilled jian practitioner with good timing all the opening they need. I think this is what Scott was pointing out. Another problem is in close quarters fighting the chain would become almost useless where most jian styles still have effective moves for cutting a guy six inches away.

I would see the big disadvantage of rope darts is the possibility of the rope being cut. You couldn't really block in any normal sense of the term. With a chain, blocking and locking is more possible.

Ultimately, it is probably one of those things where skill and a bit of luck decide the winner. For the first ten years of training though I would be confident that the guy with the jian would win.

For a fun fictional account of rocks in combat, check out "Featherless Arrow" in "Outlaws of the Marsh".

Josh

Scott M. Rodell · Post by **Scott M. Rodell** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 7:53 am

josh stout wrote:...The disadvantage of a chain whip seems to be it is fully committed and difficult to stop in mid swing. This could give a skilled jian practitioner with good timing all the opening they need...

Exactly my thought, & then how would a chain or dart that has been deflected or hit something that impeaded its momentum & return be used to deflect a cut?

josh stout wrote:... For the first ten years of training though I would be confident that the guy with the jian would win.

These weapons have been around sometime. If they didn't come into wide spread use during their age, when people were using bladed weapons in warfare & for general self-defence, it is resonable to assume they were not effective in the large, general sense.

josh stout wrote:For a fun fictional account of rocks in combat, check out "Featherless Arrow" in "Outlaws of the Marsh".

This thread also reminded me of him, but remember, he fought at a distance. Guys throw rocks, or shooting arrows, from a behind the line would certainly be effective on the pre-guns battlefield.

Remember Featherless Arrow's duel on horseback?

J HepworthYoung · Post by **J HepworthYoung** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 9:56 am

In fights rocks are only good to a little past 10 feet anyway, very hard to dodge at that range, but a thrown rock (or rope dart) cannot deflect a blade. A ropedart can be retracted and redeployed pretty fast, but a person with a sword could close the distance and cut faster in most cases.

With some thrust or lunge type moves 10 feet is not a safe distance.

Of course throwing weapons like shuriken (or rocks) or such make much better complimentary weapons than primary ones.

Thanks for the input!