guns to be obsolete?

Discussion of Chinese historical swordsmanship from all styles.

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yowie_steve
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guns to be obsolete?

Post by yowie_steve » Tue Aug 01, 2006 6:27 pm

There is a development of 'liquid armour' that is almost as lightweight as clothing that can cover the entire body as opposed to bulky kevlar vests.

Article: http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/co ... 996068.htm and a video: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... body+armor

Could this be the advent of a new era of warfare where little high velocity pellets have no effect and in which melee combat would be the norm? Can swords make a comeback and replace the gun? Taken, the armour can protect against a sword also, but maybe a good hefty thrust with a sword or knife would penetrate (with the armour not pierced, merely covering the stabbing implement) the skin more than a tiny bullet.

This kind of clothing could be quite commonplace and more convenient for everyday living. I've got myself some motorbike jeans with kevlar lining, and it's pretty comfortable to wear throughout the day.

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Post by J HepworthYoung » Tue Aug 01, 2006 11:17 pm

In many places (in the States) it is illegal for civilians to wear body armor designed to thwart bullets.



I feel that in a way this may be a form of escalation, making violence even more viable as a means to an end. In a way it makes me a little sad...



Still it is very neat stuff and I would love to see it used for protective gear for nonviolent endeavors. I wonder if some sort of chemical can be added to the suspension which increases heat resistance too?

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Post by Scott M. Rodell » Wed Aug 02, 2006 9:04 am

J HepworthYoung wrote:In many places (in the States) it is illegal for civilians to wear body armor designed to thwart bullets...


I hadn't heard that. What is your source for this? Seem so ridiculous, typical of the state...

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Post by J HepworthYoung » Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:52 am

I feel quite foolish, I had been basing that upon hearing of arrests for it but now I see that it is only illegal for people with some felony convictions to wear it, something I think can be but isn't always wise.



The law for that is: United States Law 18 USC 931.



New York State legislators were trying to pass legislation preventing civilians from being able to obtain it and presumably wear it, it failed but the future may see more attempts along these lines.



It is illegal in Oz.



I am sorry for my lack of accuracy on this matter.

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Post by Linda Heenan » Wed Aug 02, 2006 3:07 pm

About 5 months ago, there was a new Customs regulation making it illegal to import body armour from overseas. This has not been carefully thought through or defined but is a reaction to a much more serious issue about discovering training camps for terrorist groups, etc. Australian government bodies often try to wipe out a threat by aiming at a simple thing that affects all sorts of innocent people and doesn't actually get to the root of the problem :? In this case no one considered that the fencing community buys masks from overseas, or that the reenactment community imports pieces of armour and only a few very patient or skilled people can make their own. I don't think they thought about people making their own either but ever since Ned Kelly, that has been an Australian tradition.



I immediately wrote to Customs and asked for some explanation. I asked for exemption for both my reenactment group and the Australian branch of GRTC. There was no reply. I suspect it has a lot to do with how you label things. Even though there are people making the laws who are too busy to think about their implications, the people closer to the ground, actually dealing with the reality, use their discretion.



A lot of us tend to ignore certain things, preferring to remain ignorant of the written details. Unless they are widely publicised, we don't want to know. I haven't noticed anyone thinking they would be in trouble if they wear full steel and leather armour with a sword by their side, in a street parade, for example. Sensible Australians listen to sensible laws. We do our best to ignore the nonsense. If it becomes an enforceable issue with clear definition, we will take notice. In the meantime, that sort of armour Steve was talking about labels neatly as motorcycling uniform, or some other use we would put it to.

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guns obsolete?

Post by Scott M. Rodell » Thu Aug 03, 2006 9:03 am

Guns obsolete? Boy won't that be great, guys like me who spent thier lives studying the sword wouldn't feel so out of place in time! Not to mention that we'd finally be in large enough demand to move out from under the bridges we live under into actual house!

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Interesting

Post by Kyro R. Lantsberger » Sun Aug 13, 2006 9:28 pm

I am very interested in this development. I have a background very well tuned to this discussion. I am an Army vet of Bosnia (2000), Iraq (2003), and I spent 7 years working in corrections.



Skeptical is a loaded word, but there are some factors which I do not believe have been integrated into testing of this product at this point.



I see that it is coming into use in corrections first, which I believe is its most appropriate usage. In a military environment, this material would need to be able to sit in storage long term, go through shipping and handling before even encountering combat conditions. These conditions could range from continuous wet and humid conditions in certain jungle environments to unforgiving heat and dryness in others. Can this material stand immersion and contact with sweat and body fluids? Or would long term exposure to heat, sun, and sand alter this chemically?



In terms of tactical changes as a result..........I think fire and maneuver warfare is here to stay. Even though the protection could be greater, the need for concealment and mobility(thinking at squad and platoon size) would still be the same. Most of the people that the professional militaries of the world fight against are unlikely to have this type of protection, so I think implementation would push them even more towards the direction of unconventional warfare. However, I could see a machete become more of a standard issue item as Im sure some groups would make it their tactic to try to disrupt better armed and trained units by closing to melee range.



Think of it this way.......There is absolutely nothing that existed in the arsenal of ancient China that could have done ANYTHING to modern armored tanks. However, they are still beatable as eventually the guys inside are going to climb out to take a leak, smoke a cigar, or look for hookers.



There is also the question of munitions. Someone explained how a knife penetrates ballistic fabric. Perhaps different bullet materials/shapes could achieve some success.



Again, I do see this as a very, very good thing in a correctional setting, where you basically have a controlled atmosphere within the confines of an institution. However, just for perspective, there is honestly nothing that inmates are capable of producing that could penetrate Crusade era padded chainmail. I could make a batch of that stuff up in my garage at probably 1/10th of what we are talking about for this other invention.

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