Questions on exercises and cut theory

J HepworthYoung · Post by **J HepworthYoung** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 3:30 pm

Hi all,

My name is Josh and I like swords, the jian styles most of all.

I am very interested in martial focus and at this point do not practice any forms, instead I practice just some basic cuts and do a lot of thinking about cut physics.

This is for my own use so please point out any issues or information I am unaware of or wrong about.

I have broken down cuts into two main groups according to their plane of movement, including the horizontal and the vertical, however I have placed the rising vertical cut in the horizontal group due to the nature of the motion and its relation to the body. For me the rising vertical cut uses very similar motion as the horizontal cut.

Then there are angles of motion, the diagonal cuts that rise up use horizontal cut type motions while the ones that drop down diagonally use the vertical cut motion. So then I have broken down the cuts to the two movements and am seeking to train the involved muscles to better facilitate the motion using specific exercises.

I wanted to go for as simple an approach as I could initially, although I love the look of flowery forms I wanted to stress practical simplicity.

I have a bunch of drawings that I have made of theoretical cuts, theoretical to me at this point at least. They generate power using quick short motions like snaps, whipping motion and twisting (wrist and forearm) to generate torque which is channeled into a cut motion. I cannot perform the experimental cuts properly yet, they work on paper but they just seem to demand a lot of control. The idea though is to generate enough power to cut in a quick short motion that is hard to anticipate.

I want to learn of exercises, preferably using ones body and the ground since those things are easy to find, which will give me not only greater strength and endurance but help me develop more precision and control of the involved muscles. What exercises, that don't involve a sword, could help me with this?

Also what am I missing?

I should mention I am confused about grips, I know of the katana style grip Musashi mentions in his book, and the thumb and forefinger heavy grip of the foil, but I am not sure how I should be holding a jian. It seems I can hold a jian and make cuts with a few grips, but some feel wrong and I would love to learn more about the traditional grips.

J HepworthYoung · Post by **J HepworthYoung** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 4:03 pm

I have been lookign for a moment at water calligraphy:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... i_Park.JPG His grip and this form of exercise seem pretty nice to me.

here is a picture of a chinese grip for calligraphy

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e ... h_hold.jpg

Is this akin at all to how one might grip a jian?

J HepworthYoung · Post by **J HepworthYoung** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 7:14 pm

Please forgive my asking of a question that I could have easily found more info on using a search function, I mean as pertaining to the grip. I am currently reading all of the posts in the swords forums and finding answers to questions throughout.

Scott M. Rodell · Post by **Scott M. Rodell** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 8:18 pm

J HepworthYoung wrote:...what am I missing?...

A complete system, form work, etc... these would provide the answers to the questions you have as one integrated practice. Cutting practice is quite useful, but it sounds like your are practicing them in a vaccum. In & of itself, cutting work is not swordsmanship, obvioulsy the target can't hit back or move in any way. The role of cutting practice in historical swordsmanship is to test the cuts from one's system, i.e. from one's form. From cutting practice, one could very likely develop great cutting skills. The question is, would one then understand when to use these cuts? What are useful follow up cuts? How one should deflect in order to create the opening for a particular cut? etc...

The answer to questions like these are in the forms. Forms (the old traditional ones) are text books, every thing is written in there. You just have to know how to read 'em.

J HepworthYoung · Post by **J HepworthYoung** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 8:29 pm

Is it possible to learn forms from imitation and from books or must some aspects be transmitted so to speak?

I have illustrations of what claims to be 32-sword form. I have been gleaning what I can from it and videos of forms and combat (wooden swords and fencing), I am not sure where to start though. I am willing to wait and learn a empty hand form and practice it first if needs be.

Scott M. Rodell · Post by **Scott M. Rodell** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 2:13 pm

J HepworthYoung wrote:...possible to learn forms from imitation and from books or must some aspects be transmitted so to speak?...

Books & DVDs are quite useful aids to learning. Video is particularly useful in helping memorize forms. However, there are most certainly aspects of any art that need to be transmitted teacher to student.

J HepworthYoung wrote: ... I am willing to wait and learn a empty hand form and practice it first if needs be.

It is not an absolute necessity, but it is the traditonal method for good reason. Swordsmanship is built off of the foundation created by empty hand training. Of course, the Yang Family wouldn't have had the luxury of long periods to train thier students when they worked as militia trainers during the Taiping Rebellion. I suspect they went fairly directly into basic sword work, how else could they have trained men for battle in a short time?

J HepworthYoung · Post by **J HepworthYoung** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 2:35 pm

Thank you.

I know there are some local groups that practice some form of Taiji in a park nearby, i will look into their form and the details of participating.

The more I watch forms in video clip though, the more I am drawn to 3 jian forms. One is a bagua jian form, one is wudang jian, and the other is the Yangshi Taiji Jian.

It seems that having a good empty hand foundation is ideal for my interests.

Scott M. Rodell · Post by **Scott M. Rodell** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 9:16 am

J HepworthYoung wrote:...local groups that practice some form of Taiji in a park nearby, i will look into their form and the details of participating...

Two simple ways of evaluating a taijiquan group is: 1). Do they practice the entire system & do so in a martial context (afterall, taijiquan is no less a martial art than karate or shaolinquan) & 2). Do they practice just his art, or has the instructor studies 5 to 12 different arts. The study of any single art requires 10 plus years to achieve a special level of skill. Obvioulsy if one has "learned" 5 arts over the last 10 years, its more like they are a second years student of a bunch of arts than an advanced student of any.

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Questions on exercises and cut theory

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