Eastern and Western Swordsmanship.

Discussion of Chinese historical swordsmanship from all styles.

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ben hanawalt
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Eastern and Western Swordsmanship.

Post by ben hanawalt » Mon Jul 24, 2006 11:09 am

I was reading Mr. Rodell's book on swordsmanship, and noticed in the back that he had at one time practiced olympic fencing. Specifically to Mr. Rodell, I am very curious what his experience w/ that was. What he learned, and how it has shaped his current swordsmanship. Ever pick up an epee anymore? And if not, why?



To everyone else on the board. I am curious if anyone out there practices either or both styles, and what there experiences have been.



I am fascinated, as my own practice has taught me so much. I am currently training w/ Mike Wiseman.. preparing for the visit Scott will be making in August. (Oh yes.. and is there -any- way you could bring one or more antique jians for me to study?? I will soon have my 3' cyclone forge..) but I am also training w/ a martial artist who teaches yang style tai chi, northern shaolin, and a few others.. but fencing as well. (in the course of my studys, I have gone up against a bokken w/ a foil.. )so.. as you might guess.. the lines are very blured for me.



respectfully,



ben
From the earth.. into the fire.. fanned with air.. quenched in water नमस्ते

Scott M. Rodell
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My Fencing Experience

Post by Scott M. Rodell » Mon Jul 24, 2006 11:23 am

My fencing experience was brief, but rather intense.



I fenced during college, in class, & outside of class over the summer. It was useful when I started learning the taiji jian forms because I knew what it was like to have some one really thrusting at me, & so understand how I would have to deflect them, I could easily imagine my duifang, sword in hand, infront of me. So that brief fencing experince was quite helpful in that way.



My son is quite involved in foil fencing at the moment & is looking to move onto epee so he can aim at any pat of the body. Not unexpectedly, he has been training Chinese Swordsmanship with me at home & isn't bad with a blade (he helped me teach earlier this month in Australia). I've found that it isn't hard to teach him things from Chinese Swordsmanship that work quite well in his foil matches.



I am at times a bit concerned that what they teach him in sport fencing will interfer with his historical swordsmanship, specifically, there are ways of deflecting a light sport blade that won't work for a heavy, real weight sword. Also, I've noticed that in sport matched there is a lot of scoring by simply being the "fastest gun" & that most of the time there are double hits. That's fine for sport fencing, but it would get one killed in a real match, or hurt repeatedly when using wooden waisters. But for now, he needs to play kids his own age & not just beat up on my adult students all the time.
Last edited by Scott M. Rodell on Sat Jul 29, 2006 8:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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J HepworthYoung
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Post by J HepworthYoung » Sat Jul 29, 2006 3:04 pm

If I may comment on this topic, I took a college class in foil fencing and along with learning basics and such got to watch much more accomplished folks duel it out so to speak.



One of the impractical aspects was the concept of 'right of way', basically two people could stike blows, that would have been fatal to both players were the game played with live swords, and the one who wins is the one who has the right of way. I can't help but think that both players have lost in that type of scenario. The right of way concept is that an advancing/attacking player gets the point when they exchange otherwise equally valid blows with a player who isn't advancing or didn't advance first. However right of way can be tricky and isn't always clear.



One thing I had a distaste for was that the formal fencing took place in a narrow linear field, thus circling and sidestepping were prohibited to a large degree. I'd much rather not be in the area my opponent is stiking at, than deflect a strong blow. Also without being able to sidestep I find it harder to use the momentum of the opponent against them.



I could not say I found the class to have a martial spirit, but I liked the teachers, both of whom were female olympic fencers, one of whom had won a medal, though I am not sure what medal.



One analogy that held true was the matches were like "chess as 90 miles an hour".

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Post by ben hanawalt » Sat Jul 29, 2006 8:47 pm

It is very interesting what european fencing has become, from what it was. Until recently, I held a very similar opinion. but that is the way of sports. first you make rules, then you figure out how to use the rules to your advantage. In sport fencing, the 'flick' is a classic example, to get around someones guard and still have the force to depress the button.



so I think it is important to differentiate between the art, and the sport. and I would like to take this chance to pass along a few interesting tidbits, some that I learned from my current teacher, some come from research, and others from my own experience.



Many people believe that the sword became obsolete with the advent of fire arms. and perhaps that is true to degree. especially in open warfare. but the personal duel survived much, much longer. In some regions up into the 70s... the 1970s.. suprising ? yes. true. yes.

My teacher studied with a russian instructor iin san francisco during the 80s, who had recently imigrated. He had made a much better living in the old country coaching duelists. young men( I assume, didn't hear anything about women) would come to him to hone their skills, learn a few tricks before the big day. So when he taught fencing in the US, if you made a mistake, in thick a russian accent he would say,"you do that, you die!" and he meant it. he was teaching people the art of the fence in the only way he knew how... as if it were life and death.



when you look deeper into it.. there were three main schools: the french, the italian, and the spanish.

The french had very proper, static guards.. It is very likely that scotts son is learning this style. The stance and body movements however is very proper, and follows the guidelines as I understand them as outlined in the Classics. (of course I am learning from someone who also teaches Taijichuan.. so I may be biased from his opinion. but to tell it as it is... if I become double weighted, as he repeatedly showed me today... im toast.. skewered toast.. if my form doesn't utilize the principles, i become tired, my defence is soft, and my attacks have no strength )


One of the impractical aspects was the concept of 'right of way', basically two people could stike blows, that would have been fatal to both players were the game played with live swords


this happened most often in the italian style. Their creed lives on as "offence is the best defence". and I have read numerous accounts of duels where both men died. (to put this in perspective. during the early 1800s, in italy, thousands died every year in duels. it was outlawed because it was a detriment to the population. I should find the exact number and exact year, because it's rather astounding)



The spanish school (la destreza) I find the most fascinating, as my limited experience w/ it and bagua leads me to believe that the footwork is in many cases, nearly identicle. la destreza had it's own version of circle walking. though not much information is left. think of 'the biting step' and it also utilizes the 'hidden step' as I learned it from the 13 kenetic movements extensively. the spanish school focuses almost exclusively on 'voiding' attacks, and utilizes no static guards that I am aware of. and though a style that never made it to sport, it never the less was developed during the same time period.


One thing I had a distaste for was that the formal fencing took place in a narrow linear field, thus circling and sidestepping were prohibited to a large degree.


that is true.. once again, in sport fencing. I have found that it is extremely linear. much like hsing-i. In fact. San Ti has for a long time been part of my standing practice. I found it to almost identicle to the french guard position. (Instead of forming 'the tigers eye', the wrist is already turned up to hold the foil. the same as one does when you 'lunge' from san ti into pi chuan.) Now I use it exclusively. from the french guard, I compress into san ti. then lunge with the same internal feeling (for me) as pi chuan. (the initial step anyway.)



I cannot say how well it might work against multiple opponents, or at odd angles.. but do intend to find out.



and perhaps it is only the teacher I have, and his personal style lets fencing feel like push hands to me. (very frustrating when you lunge, and he reaches out, making contact with your blade, 'sticking' to it, so that I can't redirect the attack, utilizing 'rollback' to steal my power, then thrusting it back at me.)



so.. I guess.. it is the same a taijichuan. some teach w/ martial intent. and some do not.



thank you for the post. it was most enjoyable to read. and relate to. I find I get very similar responses from people regarding both european fencing and taijichuan. they don't realize that they are both powerful martial arts, because so many people practice without martial intent or knowledge.



which is why I enjoy reading and posting on this board. =)



and remember. this is all from my experience, and I am by no means an expert. If you have anything to add. or would like to see cold hard fact for things I have mentioned. let me know. I have many pictures and articles stored on my hard drive. and as with any research, I am making connections as they appear to me.



ben
From the earth.. into the fire.. fanned with air.. quenched in water नमस्ते

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Post by J HepworthYoung » Sat Jul 29, 2006 9:03 pm

My only addition is to thank you for your insightful post.

I should like to get more information on the Western martial fencing, an instruction book may be nice. Are there any you would suggest i seek out?

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