Hsing - I in the Michuan Sword form?

Discussion of Chinese historical swordsmanship from all styles.

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Hsing - I in the Michuan Sword form?

Post by ben » Fri Dec 16, 2005 12:15 pm

I was at my accupunterists/laoshi's/chinese herbalist's/ a bunch of other stuff as a result of a rather severe car accident I was in 2 days ago.. (long story... just to say... in a crash involving two cars going over 50mph.. I walked away from a totalled 89 toyota 4runner with a scratch ...mainly due to my new snowboard helmet I had just bought, and being a big dork, was wearing... )

Anyway.. after some really great applied kinesiology.. I was showing him some stuff off the GRTC website. As he taught me the yang long form, and is currently teaching me Hsing - I, starting with pi chuan.

I had been relating to him my experiences with a master in chicago who I was studying taiji sword with... whom I was disappointed to find new next to nothing about swords. (Im not an expert, but I know that you do not loosen the nut on the pommel... so that the blade is slightly loose.. so that it doesn't break when another sword strikes it.) and knew the form as it should be practiced in a competition...



and I was telling him about a swordsman named Scott Rodell who I would give <insert something valuable that I don't have atm> to study with...



and so we were watching the demonstration video on this page (the piece from Scott Rodells applications video) and "interesting" rick said... "that's metal... that's wood.. " etc. everymovement made... he knew the element. (as it relates to hsing - i anyway) it is his opinion that the elements are incorporated into the public taiji (which is the one he knows).. though most people don't realize.. and it seems.. in michuan (we were looking at the sword form.. have no idea about the hand form) the parallels are even closer...



so... my question... how are they related?



when I practic pi chuan in hsing I, what are the relations to the pi cut in michuan sword.



the same energy perhaps?



I haven't had a chance to see if the movements are similar.



and in my research, I haven't found anything relating hsing I to taiji.



so... I am curious to hear from y'all.
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Re: Hsing - I in the Michuan Sword form?

Post by Scott M. Rodell » Mon Dec 19, 2005 9:51 am

ben wrote:...watching the demonstration video... from Scott Rodells applications video... rick said... "that's metal... that's wood.. " etc. every movement made... he knew the element. (as it relates to hsing - i anyway) it is his opinion that the elements are incorporated into the public taiji (which is the one he knows).. though most people don't realize.. and it seems.. in michuan (we were looking at the sword form.. have no idea about the hand form) the parallels are even closer...


There are several answers to your questions & Rick's observations. The first is that, all the basic cuts of both systems of the Yang Taiji swordsmanship are cuts that are basic to many (if not all) systems of Chinese swordsmanship. The simple reason for this is that given the limiting factors of swordplay, ie, distance, timing, etc., there aren't as many variables available for the martial artist to work with in response to his duifang. In other words, there is no infighting/grappling vs. long range kicking vs. medium range hand techniques variations in swordplay, you just can not shoot a take down on a swordman. Likewsie, various stepping techniques, like half steps to the diagonal just do not mean anything in swordplay, one is just too far back from the duifang for this to have the same effect it can have when say the duifang is stepping in for a straight hand. This means, every system had to deal with the same types of attacks from the same distance as everyone else, therefore, given the limited space in which to work, all systems arrived at the same set of answers.



It is not the the taiji jian pi cut looks like the xingyi (hsingi) jian pi cut, it is that pi & all other cuts are common to all systems if Chinese swordsmanship. What varies between systems is body mechanics & how power is generated. In this way the taiji jian pi is different, but not in aplication. We should also keep in mind, that no system evolved in a vacuum. All systems drew on what came before, so just because one system have a similar technique to another, this does not automatically mean that there was a linear progression from one to the next, they could have been effecting each other, or they both could have absorbed the technique from another source.



Part of what Rick is noticing is simple this commonality between the systems. This is why students from systems other than taiji quan always enjoy my swordsmanship seminars, because they start saying, hey, we do the same thing...

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Post by Scott M. Rodell » Sat Jun 10, 2006 8:37 am

See the video clip:

http://www.hsing-i.com/pics/WWeapApp1.mpg

for an example of a xingyi jian Metal movement that is no different than the use of pi in many other jian forms including the Yangjia Mchuan Taiji Jian form. This is a good example of how most forms/systems of Chinese swordsmanship all rely on the same set of basic cuts. This is simply because there are a limited number of way the human body can move & a bladed weapon can be used to cut effectively.

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Interesting thread

Post by Kyro R. Lantsberger » Sat Jul 01, 2006 7:44 pm

This is an interesting thread to me. Im a long time internal practicioner who recently decided to place an emphaisis on sword work. I learned Yang style jian form long ago, but not in what I would call a professional way - with intent.



I got Scott's sword book, and finally see the cuts, parries, etc.



On the other hand, I was taught the Hsing I jian form at a much higher level by an instructor who was superior at both the internal connections themselves, and the mechanics of the sword in particular. The Hsing I jian form is undramatic to say the least, but I understand it at a better level than Tai Chi.



Which brings me to basically my point/question. Scott's book is very well put together with the different sword movements, as well as putting them in context of the larger form. Ive done a fair amount of free fighting with jian in the far, far, far past, so I have the feeling that Im basically reconstructing, but in certain places I do have the desire to slightly modify things to be more "Hsing-I like". Am I "right" to do so, or has repetitive training in Hsing I merely make certain things feel right which would actually be errors?



I know this is hard to diagnose/answer without actually seeing/feeling what is going on. In essence, am I right in saying that the position of the point, edge, and flat are what is important for sword work, and the body mechanic- Hsing I vs Tai Chi only secondary?

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Re: Interesting thread

Post by Scott M. Rodell » Sat Jul 08, 2006 5:17 pm

Kyro R. Lantsberger wrote:This is an interesting thread to me...


Sorry I didn't respond earlier, I'm away from home at the moment, down under in Australia teaching seminars...


Kyro R. Lantsberger wrote:... got Scott's sword book, and finally see the cuts, parries, etc... The Hsing I jian form is undramatic to say the least, but I understand it at a better level than Tai Chi.


Typically, the straight forward, no frills forms that don't impress the eye, are the good solid forms one will want to learn if interested in swordsmanship & not dance preformance.


Kyro R. Lantsberger wrote:... in certain places I do have the desire to slightly modify things to be more "Hsing-I like". Am I "right" to do so, or has repetitive training in Hsing I merely make certain things feel right which would actually be errors?


Its not a question of right or wrong, but of which type of gongfu (skill) you are looking to develop. Naturally one tends to fall back on old familiar ways of using one's body, to develop something new, you'll have to let go of the old.


Kyro R. Lantsberger wrote:... In essence, ...right in saying that the position of the point, edge, and flat are what is important for sword work, and the body mechanic- Hsing I vs Tai Chi only secondary?


Absolutely, you are spot on (as they say down here). It is not uncommon for practitioner's of Shaolin jian to attend my Chinese Swordsmanship Seminars have that "ah ha" moment repeatedly as they see & understand moments from their Shaolin Sword forms for the first time. Due to the constraints of the distance & timing a sword can be effectively used at & the manner in which a blade can be used to cut, within swordsmanship, there are a limited number of basic cuts that will work. The majority of these are common to all systems. Therefore, what varies is not so much technique, but the manner in which one uses the body. So now that you are studying taiji jian swordsmanship, you can use what you learned in the to help you understand the movement & applications, but let go of the xingyiquan (hsing-i) to allow the taijiquan gongfu room to grow.

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Re: Hsing - I in the Michuan Sword form?

Post by xingyi24 » Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:01 pm

First off, "Thank you to all contributors of this thread." It had an "ah ha" in it alone.

The question I have now though, is when someone does add another style, is the old form really a "taint" or how possible is it to have a more complete knowledge of both?

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Re: Hsing - I in the Michuan Sword form?

Post by Scott M. Rodell » Thu Apr 09, 2009 8:49 pm

xingyi24 wrote:... when someone does add another style, is the old form really a "taint" or how possible is it to have a more complete knowledge of both?
The answer to that depends on what one's objective is. With respect to taijiquan, in my travels over 4 continents to train & practice, I've found that many, if not most, pay little attention to the principles laid down in the Classics & only imitate the movements, few actually use the waist as the commander for example, instead staying with the arms leading the body. So if learning another sword system impedes correct learning & understanding the principles, that is a problem.

On the other hands, if one learns a bit of another style, as we train Miaodao at GRTC, but does it with proper taijiquan body mechanics, that can be a plus, as it helps one understand the other types of things that can come at you when you have your jian in hand...

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Re: Hsing - I in the Michuan Sword form?

Post by xingyi24 » Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:24 am

Except for a couple sorties early in life, circumstances unfortunately prevent me from finding teachers outside the range of a tank of gas, but I have seen what you are talking about. Many schools teach the motions of arts without the core theories. In many schools, the internal arts are especially neglected. I found a taichi school in Michigan that didn’t teach fighting, but it said martial arts on the sign. I found a school that said it teaches one form of xingyi in Maryland, but when I saw a teacher do it, the punch was clearly from the shoulder, and that shoulder never even came forward.

The advantage of the theories, as you hint, does give practice a clear direction to follow, and root to branch from, but sometimes, for moments, I wonder if I’ve stopped practicing the art and spent too much time thinking like an engineer, a psychologist, or a physicist. Sometimes it's hard to turn off one field of study when entering another, and sometimes rules don't transfer. My literature degree has ruined many a movie for my wife after the first 20 minutes. :oops: I want to enjoy the movie as it is, but there are just some common themes, motifs, and symbols that ruin any chance for surprise, and it may hide a new theme. Like weapons, it's applying the same themes and theories to a new device. It hurts any chance of recognizing it for what it is, because the "rules" try to fit it into a mold when sometimes that can't happen. This becomes a clear problem for me in my practice of xingyi jian with the xingyi pi cut (no target cutting). I have been more of a dao user, and, even though that back edge makes such a mistake potentially life threatening if my jian were sharp, I've caught myself accidentially entwining around my head, instinctually feeling my way through the dao form when xingyi really keeps the jian in front of the body for very good reasons.

I guess that's why I want to ask, when you said “another sword system,” do you mean a different weapon, or a martial system? In your opinion, can a person truly attempt to master more than one?

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Re: Hsing - I in the Michuan Sword form?

Post by Robert Bemoras » Fri May 01, 2009 8:41 pm

Another point not touched on is that when you look through any martial artist's learning tree, you will most likely find a history of many martial arts that were studied. In many of the villages in China there was a mixture of internal and external arts that were practiced. Many practitioners blended these arts together probably without even realizing it. With regards to taijiquan, that is why it is so important to practice what is pure without trying to add past experiences and practices. My sifu started my training by telling me to forget everything I know.

Bob

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Re: Hsing - I in the Michuan Sword form?

Post by xingyi24 » Sat May 30, 2009 9:17 am

The problem that seems to remain with me though is that I can make my head forget, momentarily, but I don't have a way of telling my body to "shut up, and do what I'm telling you now." Muscles are like high school students. They like consistancy and knowledge of what to do next.

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Re: Hsing - I in the Michuan Sword form?

Post by J HepworthYoung » Sat May 30, 2009 2:02 pm

You are right, the muscle memory must be dealt with to start over.
I suggest at least a year of foundational stance training before doing any movement work in this case, as well as in the case of having no training.

This way the muscles are retrained to the beginning, or in the case of no training the person will become conditioned enough to begin properly.

It is almost impossible for beginners to start with movement and then realize that the center leads the hands because they focus on moving their hands. However with stance training they learn to hold their hands with their center, thus when they begin the movement training they move their center properly and the hands are moved.

In some branches the transmission of the waist initiating movement is missing, distorted or re-invented. Students in some branches are told not to study the classics, largely because the classics contradict what the teacher is doing! But then the classics are like any book, you cannot learn taiji from them without having an authentic transmission of a physical nature, this same problem is found in video, it is best used in conjunction with a genuine initiation into the art by way of how it feels, this cannot be had without a physical transmission.

I know of a few people who teach taiji forms and stress not to do push hands, and I know a man who teaches and learned from a book and then video and he loves to do push hands, but the physical transmission is missing from his taiji as it is missing from those who do only forms and do not do push hands. In an ironic manner, even though you cannot see the energies at play in taiji and thus cannot tell what taiji feels like by looking at it, you can often tell by looking, once you become familiar with the nature of how it feels; if the transmission is absent in the taiji of another.

this is my thought on what has been brought up in this thread

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Re: Hsing - I in the Michuan Sword form?

Post by Kyro R. Lantsberger » Mon Jun 08, 2009 9:41 pm

Greetings, been away from this form for awhile, but I enjoy these questions.

I do not necessarily think that this is a moot question, but I really do not think any "pure" style exists any longer, and perhaps never did. Ive trained under some recognized lineages in the 3 neijia styles, and other people with very solid credentials will look at my Hsing- I and say it looks very Bagua-like. There are some Bagua schools that look like they are doing Shaolin on a circle. I think there is a range and a continuum when it comes to these styles and the internal principles themselves as well depending on the emphasis of the teacher and even the way a particular students mind-body assimilates the training.

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Re: Hsing - I in the Michuan Sword form?

Post by xingyi24 » Tue Jun 09, 2009 9:48 am

Additionally, I can't see how even a pure system would remain unchanged based on the size of china and variations in opponents. The biggest difference I seen in some of the Hubei Xingyi and Shianxi Xingyi is the desire to be a striker or grappler. Shianxi, and Sun, allow for a greater distance in the expansion and contraction aspects of the art, but expose more weaknesses against a grapple attack. If the rumors I have come accross are true, Hubei style saw more contact against the mongolian wrestlers, which would explain why the retracted hand guards the elbow more after a strike than returning to the dantien. Power is sacrificed, but defense is increased.

When I was younger and wanted to study the strengths and weaknesses of what I do, I used to occasionally do some light sparring with a mui tai fighter. I saw the A-frame guard and almost grinned, thinking, "thank you for giving me the center," but my eyes then saw the huge gaps on my sides and I realized everything I would want to do could have disasterous consequenses, so monkey and horse had to become an attacking hawk, standing snake, and a retreating dragon.

Additionally, practicing with other xingyi styles within the same area, we all kept borrowing and remixing to suit our own body types and tempos, as well as what has worked and what has not. Some of the best style changes came with some of the best bruises. Even though everyone learned an effective style by the time we were done we kind of said we practice "caravan xingyiquan," learning from many teachers, and having a myriad of experiences, against a myriad of martial brothers and sisters.

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Re: Hsing - I in the Michuan Sword form?

Post by Scott M. Rodell » Fri Jul 10, 2009 8:44 am

xingyi24 wrote:... can't see how even a pure system would remain unchanged based on the size of china and variations in opponents. The biggest difference I seen in ... Hubei Xingyi and Shianxi Xingyi is the desire to be a striker or grappler... If the rumors ... true, Hubei style saw more contact against the mongolian wrestlers... explain why the retracted hand guards the elbow more after a strike than returning to the dantien. Power is sacrificed, but defense is increased...
Very good examples of how the environment effects changes in a particular martial art; but I think this also points out how dogmatic most practitioners are today, thinking & practicing as if there is only one way their forms can be properly practiced. I've found this to be particularly true in my lineage. I've seen classmates arguing for hours over how to do a certain move. It never seems to have occurred to them that both might be correct, that both are valid so long they both work in real application, just for different situations. Master Wang taught us to be able to use our Taijiquan in any situation. Long before there was an MMA crazy, we worked on applying the same technique we used standing from a position lying flat on our backs. (At GRTC we start training pushed to the wall as a transition to the ground). My classmate George Hu (Houston, TX) was very helpful in this. I always encourage those training at Great River to expand their knowledge, not dogmatically restrict it, so long as a valid martial application can be shown for the way some one is doing a movement, it is correct,

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Re: Hsing - I in the Michuan Sword form?

Post by xingyi24 » Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:35 am

As someone who has had to modify forms due to need, I'm inclined to agree. Not only should a form meet the situation, but also the practitioner, and the form probably should feed the strengths in practice, and round off the sharp corners of a weakness, however, is there not something to be said for training in a way that overcompensates for that corner at times? (This is really me asking, not suggesting.) When observing practioners do xingyi's two-man sets, as the pace accelerates, even among men who have trained rigorously for over 40 years, their lower guard has a tendancy to "float up." It never, however, gets to a paralell level with the forehand, and the longer they have been training, the lower it stays. Is that the product of forcing it down so long, that it at least stays lower, or something else, and is there an attempt to drive out an instinct in doing so?

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