Saber and Shield

Discussion of Chinese historical swordsmanship from all styles.

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taiwandeutscher
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Post by taiwandeutscher » Sat Aug 09, 2008 3:32 am

In Taiwan`s south, they have so called Songjiangchen, also battlefield arrays, on a samller village scale.
Will post links when back there, now I cool off a bit in Germany.
hongdaozi

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Tengpai During the 2nd Opium War

Post by Scott M. Rodell » Wed Feb 04, 2009 2:43 pm

A photo taken the 2nd Opium War, hard to tell if these guys are all really small or if their shields (tengpai) are larger than average?
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Re: Saber and Shield

Post by Tomita » Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:21 am

A bit of both, I imagine. The people in that picture are young kids, as far as I can tell.

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Re: Saber and Shield

Post by Scott M. Rodell » Tue Mar 03, 2009 9:03 am

Tomita wrote:A bit of both, I imagine. The people in that picture are young kids...
You maybe right, some of them do look quite young, but then again, I have to say I've been surprised at how small some Southern Chinese are. I've met people I thought were just in their early teens who had actually finished college. Back in the old days, training in Taiwan, I had to be careful not to hit my head on the roof of the bus on the way home when we hit a bump, & I'm not tall by American standards. The Asian built bus had a roof at least a foot lower than our US buses.

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Re: Saber and Shield

Post by taiwandeutscher » Tue Mar 03, 2009 8:28 pm

Well, Scott, times have changed.
Even I also remember walking in the pedestrian zones of Taibei 25 years ago, overlooking most people on the street, nowadays young Taiwanese grow much taller. My students at university mostly make 180 cm or even more, there are always several really tall girls in class and the boys wear nikes size 46 or something.
I think a change in eating habits might be the reason? Much more animal proteins, lots of saturrated fats from McD and KFC, lots of milk products and much more meat.
And most buses have been replaced by modern MRT trains, where everybody fits in, even buses are high enough not to bump your head, and streets in Taibei city have also improved a lot.
Greetings from Taiwan, where summer is around the corner and spring lasts only a week or two.
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Re: Saber and Shield

Post by taiwandeutscher » Mon Mar 09, 2009 12:24 am

It is that time of the year again:

高雄內們宋江陣 Song Jiang Zhen Battle Array in Neimen, Gaoxiong County of Taiwan.

Beginning: March 21, 22, 27 - 31, April 1 - 5

www.2009who-ha.com.tw

Sorry to say, but it seems more and more a tourist attraction only, being creativley changed and turned into some sort of street carneval.
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Re: Saber and Shield

Post by J HepworthYoung » Mon Mar 09, 2009 10:55 am

This is a Javanese traditional dance featuring the sword and shield.
I believe it is an interesting martial form that relates to this topic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZB5_K9FXhE
It reminds me of the form of saber and shield in the link that was provided earlier in this thread..

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Re: Saber and Shield

Post by xingyi24 » Mon Apr 13, 2009 6:17 pm

Looking through, I noticed there's not much mention of whether the shield is active or passive. It would seem that in combat, keeping that face flush to the enemy would be somewhat counter-productive. Thinking of Santishi, a turn of the palm would put the face to a fighter's left, that would attract the attention of the most direct blows from a right handed fighter. That tip in front of the hand would also lend a much more secure feeling when offering a "sword pat" to deflect a weapon, thus creating an opening. And, here's the weirdest idea, did anyone think of punching with that edge? The rattan might not hurt much, but it would cause a nice distraction.

A while ago someone posted a link to a form where someone was holding the sword to the shield, but no resolution was made as to why. I want to posit another guess. Could they be trying to pin a weapon? Many of the pictures posted show men in line. One thing I learned while fighting in line is it's good to have a friend that knows you have skill and you tag team without words. "I'll pin the weapon, then you kill him." It's just another toy I played with.

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Chinese Shield & Saber Form

Post by Scott M. Rodell » Tue Nov 17, 2009 2:09 pm

Sabre with shield 單刀碟 Video- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EfLA0vLzJk

The shield arm is often rather passive in the form demonstrated in this video, but it is interesting for comparison sake & some of the movements appear similar to some of the period illustrations above. Perhaps the form has lost much of the use of the shield & how it works together with the dao, over time, as it fell out of military use?

The technique of hiding the dao under the right arm, inside the shield is an interesting one... I'm no expert on European methods, but I don't believe they employ this technique?

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Re: Saber and Shield

Post by Peter Dekker » Sat Jan 23, 2010 5:49 pm

Interesting indeed.. Some postures surely remind of Qi-Jiguang's work, especially one when stabbing over the shield. There's probably quite a few techniques in there that with some adjustments, could be quite usable again. Overall I am amazed how little time he spends behind the shield, and am wondering how often this would occur in practical use.

Funny thing, not so long ago I was at a taji event and I had one of my shields with me. A Chinese teacher inspected the shield and said it was to big and too heavy, not suited for practical use. I told him it was exactly the same size and weight as my antique and then he said: "Yes but they don't use those anymore. Now, they should be small and light." I replied that I preferred it "the old way" and that pretty much ended the conversation. The shield of the person in the clip is also rather small, likely built for this modern less traditional variety. Still it doesn't seem too flashy in execution, not like modern wushu.


BTW I just finished another shield:
Image

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Korean Interpretation of Gen. Qi's Tengpai Techniques

Post by Scott M. Rodell » Mon Jun 28, 2010 11:27 am

In Genreal Qi Jiguang's Ming dynasty manual, he gives several basic techniques for the use of the Chinese rattan shield (tengpai) & saber (dao). The Koreans took this information & created a form for these weapons which groups in Korea are still practicing. Here is one groups presentation of the shield & saber form-
Sibpalki demonstration at Namhansanseong Fortress - Deungpae
http://www.youtube.com/user/hangukmuyew ... ZcmvkOKw24

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Re: Tengpai During the 2nd Opium War

Post by KyleyHarris » Wed Jun 30, 2010 6:36 pm

Scott M. Rodell wrote:A photo taken the 2nd Opium War, hard to tell if these guys are all really small or if their shields (tengpai) are larger than average?
They look tiny. Some appear to be Children, while others appear to be small adults. I've certainly in New Zealand seen some families where the 16 year old son was bigger than a 5ft tall father and mother :) and only wrinkles and close examination could tell you the elder :)

The Larger shield makes practical sense as a shield wall similar to the roman legions. a fast crouch would protect you from an Archery assault. I can also see how the shield that size will protect you from most attacks short of your own attacking area. but I wonder what loss of mobility you'd get from such a large shield. The romans gained strength through numbers and creating secure shield walls.. not through individual actions.

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Chinese Knife and Shield Form

Post by Scott M. Rodell » Thu Oct 31, 2013 8:06 am

An interesting Rattan Shield and Knife form from Fujian Province - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8o91gD7U7k

& another -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VYdnHYWkbY

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