Wind blows away the plum flowers technique- question

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RKurczewski
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Wind blows away the plum flowers technique- question

Post by RKurczewski » Tue Jan 01, 2013 6:50 pm

Greetings (my very first post here, please,be patient with me).

Wind Blows Away the Plum Flowers (Feng Sao Mei Hua), present in Yang Taiji 54 jian form as well as some Wudang jian and dao forms. I have been pondering on this technique for some time and if any of you would care to give me a hand it would be a great help. Interpretation I have found in Dr.Yang, Jwing-Ming book makes perfect sense as a cut to the throat of opponent and then neutralization of attack BUT I must admit I am having problems understanding why would ANY fencer risk something like 360 degrees spin on one leg between attack and block (especially considering fact, that he ends up in same blocking position from which he started). Would any of you care to explain ? Is it just an "ornament" or does it have some hidden meaning that I've been missing ?

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J HepworthYoung
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Re: Wind blows away the plum flowers technique- question

Post by J HepworthYoung » Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:47 am

I will share my perspective, which is mine alone.

An archaic text I love describe four main categories of weapon moves, one of which is whirling the weapon, the application given typically is to create space or openings, usually involving facing multiple opponents. You can find the same type of move with the same application in many martial arts and being used with many weapons, staff, club, spear, etc

It is my understanding that this technique is such a move and it isn't designed for a single opponent or specific target application, I could be wrong.

it also has benefits in terms of training...

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Re: Wind blows away the plum flowers technique- question

Post by RKurczewski » Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:29 am

Thank you for sharing. I do not expect "absolute truth" (as you can imagine), just opinions of fellow practitioners (I myself am but a beginner). As you say- it might be an effective "360 degrees block" so to speak or kind of "ward- off" move, but with all honesty- position seems to be kinda "weak" (high cut, full rotation on one leg) and in that aspect totally different from entire form which is very... how to say it... practical and down to the ground.

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J HepworthYoung
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Re: Wind blows away the plum flowers technique- question

Post by J HepworthYoung » Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:13 pm

I read that the area it targets should be the stomach... the cut in the version you give is higher than what I have been taught.

By no means did I intend to imply that it was a block or a ward off type move.
It may be, but I do not know that or believe that. the presentation of the edge, the angle etc make it a very poor technique for blocking or intercepting another weapon. I would think one would never try to use this move to encounter another weapon, for to do so is likely to harm the edge of the jian.

I do not view the Yang Jian form as practical for swordsmanship, that is my own opinion.
I do view it as having benefits for taiji players in terms of conditioning and skill development but do not view it as practical in terms of fencing per say.
Nor do i mean to offend those who have a different opinion of it than I, so I apologize should my opinion be abrasive. Sorry.

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Re: Wind blows away the plum flowers technique- question

Post by RKurczewski » Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:33 pm

Thank you very much. You are very polite- which is as refreshing as it is uncommon on internet forums. Interpretation from Dr Yang Jwing-Ming book (by no means ultimate authority or anything, just first source on my desk) is as follows:

"After blocking [which happened in previous move, the fairy shows the way] the defender cuts the opponent's throat".

To my best understanding initial move (first 180 degrees) certainly can be "deciphered" as such and would make perfect sense, but further rotation seems to have no purpose, really, even considering above interpretation as proper, and be an excessive (although very "flowery") addition.

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J HepworthYoung
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Re: Wind blows away the plum flowers technique- question

Post by J HepworthYoung » Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:14 pm

I am by no means an expert or even an authority in any way regarding this topic, however I wonder if it is the case that there are reasons behind the move that factor into more than swordsmanship.

The "public" Jian form is said by some to be about more than swordsmanship insofar as it relates to the 13 postures/8energies (the very heart of Taijiquan)
thus a weapon form can have content that is for the purpose of conditioning and teaching things that are not meant for a specific application so much as for several different aspects.

I am having a hard time explaining my thoughts on this at the moment.

For me the swordplay has advanced my skill without weapons.
In particular it relates to redirecting energy and manipulating an opponent physically.
If I treat, for example, an opponents limb as if it were the handle of a weapon when they are moving, and I feel their physical kinetic force through this, it allows me a way to manipulate that force...

In relation to the sword moves that might be seen as flowery may very well be about kinetic energy, balance and posture aspects and furthering the skill of the player in relation to these as opposed to being about swordsmanship per say.

I was taught somewhat formally that the Yang Public Jian form is part of a complete system relating to the whole to a degree that ones empty hand skill will not progress as well as it could if the Jian form is ignored or left out. I was told for example that there are certain things in the Jian form that build on and relate directly to the public long form (no weapon)... perhaps this is one of them?

I don't know per say, I must admit I focus on the basic cuts of the Michuan style and do not do the public jian form.

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Re: Wind blows away the plum flowers technique- question

Post by RKurczewski » Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:27 pm

Thank you once again. Being Tang Lang adept rather then student of Tai Chi, I am approaching subject from much more utilitarian angle, so I am not really going into advanced speculations (you might be 100% true- by no means trying to undermine your approach or conclusions)- it's just: either something works in combat situation or not. If it does- great, if not- it is either me (90% of cases) being not capable to properly use technique OR- in few remaining cases- technique is just not really suitable for practical application (no matter what reason is behind it being included etc.).

I am curious what are opinions/ experiences of others regarding this particular move.

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