First Section Michuan Applications

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Linda Heenan
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First Section Michuan Applications

Post by Linda Heenan » Sun Oct 14, 2007 10:24 pm

At present, I'm focussing on First Section MiChuan, going back through every movement to get it as good as I can. This means taking a good look at the applications for each movement, since a form cannot be done mindfully without understanding martial intent. I want to use this thread for a discussion that works its way through First Section. In order to leave it here as a good resource for students who follow, I'll be asking some questions that may seem simple. Please feel free to add to the thread if you have more questions on each part of the form, and please feel free to answer if you know the answers to questions.

First Cai
In the first of 5 applications against an attack to upper torso with the duifang's right hand, my left hand contacts the elbow to guide it offline, deflecting the attack and then I push to the upper arm, sending the duifang backwards.. The first question is this: In the other four applications - palm to the face, knife edge to the throat, knee to the groin or abdomen, and stamping down the shin, does my left hand grab the elbow with the thumb over the arm point that is there, rather than just make contact? It seems one must pull the duifang in quite close for a successful knee to the groin.

Second question - concerning counters: if I was the attacker and found a palm strike coming to my face or a knife edge to my throat .... could I counter and stop the strike with something like hitting the duifang's hand hard from underneath, as in the White Crane Spreads Wings defence? Or would that be too late to stop a fast strike to the face? What would you do? Would a strike to the body when you see it coming, be better?

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Re: First Section Michuan Applications

Post by Roland Tepp » Tue Oct 16, 2007 12:49 am

Good questions, Linda.
Linda Heenan wrote:The first question is this: In the other four applications - palm to the face, knife edge to the throat, knee to the groin or abdomen, and stamping down the shin, does my left hand grab the elbow with the thumb over the arm point that is there, rather than just make contact? It seems one must pull the duifang in quite close for a successful knee to the groin.
I must say, it depends. For the most part - you should not try to pull unless you are "helping" your duifang along. In most cases, all you need to do is to get out of the way and control the elbow - no grabbing should be necessary, as the duifang is generally already moving towards you.

Second question - concerning counters: if I was the attacker and found a palm strike coming to my face or a knife edge to my throat .... could I counter and stop the strike with something like hitting the duifang's hand hard from underneath, as in the White Crane Spreads Wings defence? Or would that be too late to stop a fast strike to the face? What would you do? Would a strike to the body when you see it coming, be better?
I'd get out of the way. It is quite possible that you see the palm strike (or whatever comes at you) from far enough that you can step back and use the "White Crane Spreads Wings" as a counter. It is more likely though that for the purpose of hitting your duifang, you have stepped in too close and committed to that strike already, the best you can do is to slide/spiral out of the way, and come back, keeping the pressure on the duifang.
Also - the "White crane" opens you up a bit too much, so you should be ready for further attacks when you do that.
Roland

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Post by Benny Bangarms » Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:54 pm

white crane cools wings is not generally used for a palm strike to the head. the timing would be extraordinarily difficult and it would leave you very open. "white crane" can be used to deal with (1)a two handed push when one hand is coming low and the other is coming high, (2) to break someone's grip when they are trying to grab onto your wrist, and (3) to deal with strikes coming low and high at the same time, a la turn and hit the tiger from second section.

that being said, one of the most likely things the duifang is going to do when you deflect (NOT PUSH) her right palm strike, is to throw a hook with her left hand before you get your strike in. in this case your strike will need to turn into a peng and you be open to strike with your left palm, as in fair lady works shuttle from the public form. alternatively, the duifang could step out of the way OR she could turn her right hand strike into peng upon being deflected in which case she will try to push your left, deflecting hand back in towards your center, jamming you up and will try to follow with a strike.

the other thing you need to be careful about is that you are in very close and are vulnerable to a kick. that's the reason you raise your front leg *not* to deliver a knee to the duifang's midsection. you would have to be inside striking range and in more a grappling distance to deliver a knee.

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re

Post by Tashi James » Wed Oct 17, 2007 5:19 am

Yeah I concur with Benny,

It would be way too late as well, unless you could pre-empt the motion of the duifung
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Left Draw Across

Post by Linda Heenan » Thu Oct 18, 2007 3:10 am

Thanks for all the helpful information on the first movement. Now I would like to focus on the next part of Section 1 MiChuan form.

There is a transition movement as we turn to the left. It contains a rollback with the right hand and a pull (?) with the left as it comes down to hip level. The application I know for that turn uses the rollback to deflect an attack with the duifang's hand. I don't believe it matters which hand. My right hand would control his arm at the elbow, and my left hand would be over the top of his wrist. A turn of the waist would send him flying out of the way, to my left. Depending on how much momentum he gives me, and where I direct the defence, he could easily be thrown to the ground. This could dislocate the elbow if he has attacked with his left hand, and I catch him from the outside of his elbow.

Can anyone add comments, clarify important things about the body mechanics, or give other applications for this movement?

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Re: Left Draw Across

Post by Roland Tepp » Sat Oct 20, 2007 7:23 am

Linda Heenan wrote:There is a transition movement as we turn to the left. It contains a rollback with the right hand and a pull (?) with the left as it comes down to hip level.
It's not hip level. more like chest level.

Actually - the left hand should stand on the same height (or slightly higher) than elbow of the right hand.

Think of it like this - when you are rolling back his arm at his elbow with an elbow of your right hand, his wrist (which you are grabbing with your left hand) can not be as low as the hip level - most likely it is either at the same level as the elbow or a tiny bit higher...
Roland

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Elbow strikes

Post by Linda Heenan » Sat Nov 03, 2007 2:39 pm

Next question, and thanks to Roland for some help he has already given with this one.

The elbow strike going into single whip uses the whole body on the turn. What about in the Elbow/Shoulder pair to opposite diagonals a little further along? I know to align the elbow and the shoulder and to power it from the rooted leg. I know that wrong alignment will cause my structure to break at the next joint.

What I need to know is if the elbow moves into position just before the strike with movement at the shoulder as the connecting hand moves the fist from the front of the chest into position near the shoulder. Or is the arm already in position and moved to the strike area with a turn of the waist?

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Post by Linda Heenan » Sat Nov 10, 2007 5:26 am

Also. concerning both elbow and shoulder strikes .... should we step into them to strengthen the impact? In the form the sequence for elbow strike is, lower the body, step, then strike. In actual use, is this sped up enough so the step powers the strike.

Also, there isn't a step into shoulder strike in the form. It just falls forward by raising the heel more. How does this work in actual use? Do you sometimes use a step to get closer to the duifang and strike more powerfully?

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Post by Scott M. Rodell » Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:26 am

Linda Heenan wrote:... elbow and shoulder strikes .... should we step into them to strengthen the impact?
Stepping or with any strike can be used to add power, but one is usually required to step forward when employing elbow or shoulder strike just to be able to reach the duifang.
Linda Heenan wrote: [In the form] there isn't a step into shoulder strike in the form. It just falls forward by raising the heel more. How does this work in actual use? Do you sometimes use a step to get closer to the duifang and strike more powerfully?
It works as a second follow up strike after the elbow hits, but one sholdn't fall into it, rather the power (jin) continues to follow out primarily from the rear leg.

If you are using the Shoulder Strike by itself, then you can use a step to adjust the distance as the situation requires.

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First Duan Applications

Post by Mark Linett » Thu Mar 06, 2008 8:05 pm

Thought I might add something to the discussion on the application of Tsai.....
The application for Tsai at the beginning of the form is usually taught as a push to the Dantien, chest or face. That kind of attack is best suited to -Pat High On the Horse- in the last third of the second duan.
Of course there are many ways to deflect this push; but since it is usually a push from down to up it would be effective to follow the push upward with Peng, then step forward and push downward on the front leg. A general rule of thumb is if the push is up, then attack will be down and if the push is down then the attack is up. It is very important to see the direction of the push or punch to know how to respond to it.
The question of the thumb is one that often comes up in push hands since it can easily be jammed. In the Tsai in the first duan, the deflect comes from the side of the elbow and then the whole hand (including the thumb stays on top of the elbow while the push is made with the other hand. Wang Laoshi at one point
showed the hand on the elbow pushing down while at the same time the other hand is pushing to the face or shoulder or chest. This way there is an equal and opposite force.

The elbow shoulder strike may best be described as a sequence-if the attacker is A and the defender is B…then A comes at B with a Tsai (push with the tiger’s mouth) to the Dantien then B responds with an upward Peng. Then A steps back folding his/her arm in preparation for an elbow strike. When he/she steps forward (rising up while keeping his weight on the back leg) with the elbow strike B responds with An-one hand is on the wrist and the other is on the elbow. Here is the crux of the question since A borrows the Jing from the An and sinks down (with a slight twist of the waist) with Kao (shoulder strike). The stepping forward is with the elbow stroke rather than with the shoulder stroke.

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