Looking for information on duan jian

[Chris Lampe]

A couple of years ago my interest in swords waned and I sold my custom dao and my antique jian but lately the bug has been coming back and I’m interested in acquiring some new swords. My primary sword interest is still the Chinese jian and I’ve been sitting on a wonderful set of reproduction jian fittings from Philip Tom that I’ve always planned to “someday” use in a project. Well, I think that day is here and since I’ve always been really fascinated with short swords I’ve decided to look into commissioning a duan jian.

What I am looking for is some historical perspective on the duan jian’s purpose and usage and especially some stats on antique duan jian. What are typical blade-lengths that people have encountered? Typical blade width at base? How are these swords weighted compared to the long jian?

I’ve looked a bit thru these forums and Sword Forum International and will continue to do so but other than one great thread by Philip Tom I didn’t find a lot of relevant information.

I appreciate any information anyone can provide.

[bond_fan]

Make sure whatever stats you get for the duan jian that they are real fighting quality swords and not some of those ones made for souvenirs I've seen. Some of these duan jian I've seen were made during the late-Qing dynasty or Republic era, but the quality of some of the blades is no better than a cheap steak knife.

I bought a pair with green rayskin scabbards off eBay that looked just like some in a book by a certain sword "expert" from China, but the blades weren't lamellar construction and were easily bent. I'm lucky that I was able to return those for a refund. One would think at $1,700.00 they would have been fighting quality swords, but they were not.

http://i596.photobucket.com/albums/tt41 ... g_0019.jpg
http://i596.photobucket.com/albums/tt41 ... 0018-1.jpg

[Nik]

Buying swords of this price off eBay doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

From the top of my head, short jian shouldn't be that much lighter than long jian. Most numbers I remember were in the 600-750g band. Balance I do not remember, I can only ask a couple of people who own historical short jian (one pair of them located in the Solingen Klingenmuseum).

I have a couple of raw (pre-polishing) blades left that could be used for making cutting jian or real full contact ones. However, I don't have historically accurate short jian fittings, as the ones I have seen were considerally smaller (less wide) than the full size jian fittings I have. Since these are pre-production test blades, I can give them for a good price for testing purposes (i.e. to get feedback and make adjustments).

[Chris Lampe]

I've got a sword maker picked out for my blade so I'm primarily trying to find out if what I'm planning is within historical parameters. My plan is for a 20" blade and as Nik stated, I want it to be pretty heavy. Basically, I'm trying to create a short-sword version of the full-length antique jian I once owned. I've seen several examples of what are probably "Bazaar" duan jians and the blade lengths, when they have been listed, have been more in the 16-17" range but that's a very small sample to draw any conclusions from.

[Scott M. Rodell]

I... My plan is for a 20" blade and as Nik stated, I want it to be pretty heavy... trying to create a short-sword version of the full-length antique jian I once owned....

20" is a bit on the short side for a duanjian. What I found handling period examples is that they fall into 2 categories, the first is those that handle like full length jian, they are typically 23-24" in length & weigh around 2 lb.. The second category of duanjian are those that are shorter in length, around 18-20" long, & handle like long knives.

Handling 100's of jian that passed thru my hands at Seven Stars, I noticed that the shorter jian appear to date from the 19th c. This makes sense given the turbulence of the times & the leadership role of the local gentry in organizing militias to meet the various rebel movements head on. These gentry would have carried jian instead of dao as a mark of thier being literati & not military men. Plus short heavy jian are excellent weapons for fighting with in the close confines of towns. I've always suggested that serious students of jianfa practice both their forms & test cutting with both "full length" & duanjian.

Here are 3 examples of Duanjian from the print catalog days of Seven Stars -

[Scott M. Rodell]

Second example -

[Scott M. Rodell]

Third example -

[Chris Lampe]

Scott,

Thanks for the information! I wasn't aware of the two general categories of duan jian but this is the exact sort of information I'm looking for. I guess what I'm shooting for is something in between those two categories, a shorter bladed duan jian that handles more like a sword than a knife. It'll be a fun project but it's some time in the future so there is plenty of opportunity to learn new things that might influence my thinking.

[Scott M. Rodell]

... the two general categories of duan jian but this is the exact sort of information I'm looking for... shooting for is something in between those two categories, a shorter bladed duan jian that handles more like a sword than a knife...

Just be careful how short you make yours, judging from my experience handling antique examples, anything less than 23" long will feel like a knife.

[Peter Dekker]

I agree with Scott. I would opt for a replica of an existing historical type rather than devising an in-between solution because their major length groups were established for a reason.

The largest group of jian found are actually duanjian in the mid. range, of rather crude manufacture made for use by the men that fought alongside the literati. China has a long history of organizing local militia in villages and whenever a dynasty collapses one sees large numbers of relatively crude, jian cranked out. This is true at least for the fall of the Ming, and later during the fall of the Qing. Don't be fooled by the general look though, they are always forge folded with inserted steel edges and of excellent steel quality. They just don't look that artistic.

Here some examples of these militia duanjian, as Scott Rodell pointed out they are generally pretty heavy. Those I've had generally ranged from 700 - 1300 grams, pretty much the weight ranges we find long jian in. They are usually characterized by having simple iron guards, are sometimes a one-piece construction while some come with saber-like fittings.

Example, probably of the 19th century, with a saber-like disc guard:

overall 73,6 cm
blade 60,5 cm
721 grams

Another one, with extremely massive blade, again with saber-style guard:



overall 63 cm
blade 57,5 cm
1075 grams

A grouping of two duanjian that appear to date from the Ming / Qing trasnition period. Bottom is a 19th century militia changjian.
Note their one-piece construction.


Unfortunately I lost the exact data on these, but all three were about 800-900 grams.

-Peter

[Chris Lampe]

Scott,

Your first post has me thinking about going up to 23" and in fact, I altered my sketch to reflect a 23" blade and I think it just looks better. It's much more in-line with the proportions of the three duan jian you posted. I definately want it to handle like a sword rather than a large knife and I currently have another commission with the same blade-maker for a 22" blade western european style short-sword that will be very jian-like like in it's blade geometry. I plan to use this blade as a starting reference for the actual jian blade. I'll look at it's handling, the stiffness of the blade, etc..and then talk to the maker about what can be done differently on the jian blade to make it more like the antique I owned. I've been looking for that "perfect" sword for years, that sword which I just love the look and the feel of, and I'm hopeful this will be the one.


Peter,

Thanks for the additional photos and information. Your previous posts about the so-called "milita" and "village" jian were a major factor in my deciding to go with a duan jian rather than a full-length jian. There is just something I like about those rugged, compact swords.

[Scott M. Rodell]

.. thinking about going up to 23" ... definately want it to handle like a sword rather than a large knife and I currently have another commission with the same blade-maker for a 22" blade western european style short-sword that will be very jian-like like in it's blade geometry...

Depending on how much you are willing to invest in this project, you might consider having a simple iron or steel bar roughed to shape on a grinder in a few different sizes, to see which handles the way you want, at such a short length, one inch longer, a 1/4" wide, a bit thicker, etc, can make unexpected differences in handling.