Using Stingray Skin for Scabbard

[bond_fan]

Anyone have any idea how much stingray skin a person would need to cover a scabbard of a Chinese jian that is approximately, length 29" = 73.66 cm, width 1.5"= 3.81 cm, thickness 7 mm?

The average length for the skins is about 30" = 76 cm long. The usable width between the eyes and near the bottom of the tail is about 4" (10.16 cm)- 5" (12.7 cm), but the width in the middle part is much wider, about 12" =30.5 cm.



Thanks!

[bond_fan]

Perhaps what I should be asking is what are the dimensions of a scabbard for a jian that is, length 29" = 73.66 cm, width 1.5"= 3.81 cm, thickness 7 mm?

If someone should have a jian that has similar dimensions to the above jian what is the length and width, thickness and circumference of the top and bottom of your scabbard? This should help with my question about how much stingray skin I need for a scabbard.

I don't own any jian scabbards, only dao, so I can't answer the question myself.

[Nik]

If you get skins that large, you need only two, one for each side. The handle part could be cut out of the unused sides, unless you want that white mark to be in the middle of the handle. Then you need 4. They come btw in two sizes or more, one large (from a different kind of ray ?), and one not so. My agent wrote me a mail about that, I will forward that when she answered the other questions on the fittings. One thing in advance, the rayskins will come unprepared, that means, they will be rough and hard, and need preprocessing and possibly coloring. And I take it from her answer that what I get is true rayskin, not artificial one.

[bond_fan]

From one web site I've seen they sell two main types of stingray skin, long and round. Long is longer and narrower and round is wider and shorter. They come in sanded & non-sanded colored versions. I am not sure if they are flexible enough though. I have seen a version in San Francisco that is more expensive in the long non-sanded version, but I would prefer to not use this as I don't really like the non-sanded look. This one is very flexible and bends just like a cow hide or leather jacket.

I would prefer not to get unprepared, uncolored hard ray skin. It would take too much work to make it usable and I know one who can treat it. If the same finish ones like they put on the scabbard are available I would be more interested in those.

Thanks!

[Peter Dekker]

Hi guys,

Traditionally the stingray was indeed used in two parts for a scabbard. There is only one seem, which was always on the bottom part of the scabbard slightly on the side of the bearer. Keep in mind that for jian, both new and antique, there are two types: those meant to be worn hilt forward and those meant to be worn hilt backwards. For sabers, one can assume they were meant to be worn with the hilt backward. The seem between the two skins is always under one of the suspension bands.

If you want to do it correct and according to tradition, the pre-treated soft skin is not suitable. It was chemically treated to become like this and is not as hard and durable as the raw stuff, so basically misses the desirable properties that made them choose ray-skin in the first place. Indeed, raw ray-skin is very hard to work with. The way some of the modern makers do it is really impressive. Work on old pieces is even better, the seem often being hardly visible. Ray-skin on old scabbards and bow and arrow parts is hard, and always ground-down to very thin, usually less than a millimeter.

As for the coarse grain in middle of the skin being visible on the handle, this is common on Japanese swords and Tang era Chinese swords but is not seen on later Chinese swords such as those from the Qing. They preferred the rather uniform grain of the sides for the handle. It was used polished when not using a grip wrap, and often left more coarse when wrapped over.

I don't have too much experience working with ray-skin, but Dave Dolbear and Philip Tom do. Dolbear once told me: "I've done about a dozen ray-skin jian hilts by now and I am not looking forward to do another." I bet both might have some more to say on this. But in any case, to cover a scabbard with ray-skin is quite a challenge even for an experienced craftsman.

-Peter

[bond_fan]

Peter,

Thanks for your opinion and info. on the stingray skin. I'd imagine back in the olden days they would need to have a scabbard covering that could hold up to the rigors of carrying every day and the craftsmen that made the scabbard must have had a lot of experience in covering them and access to the raw material, but unfortunately today is not the case. A very few people have the experience to do the covering right that is not too expensive, so unless I can sell some things I think I will have to go for the economy look of the skin without the costs and expenses of doing it in the traditional manner.

Since the majority of people's swords will be kept in their homes I think it's not going to be that much of an issue if the ray skin used isn't that durable, certainly it will be about as durable as using normal leather or painting the scabbard and cheaper this way.

[Philip Tom]

Some info on the subject FYI

1. Other scabbard coverings were used on high quality jian during the Qing. They include lacquer, leather, cloisonne metal sleeves, etc. Scabbards were of course also made of rosewood, although modern sword connoisseurs should be aware that hardwoods are prone to damaging blade polishes by scratching or rubbing if the wood swells up due to excess oiling or drastic climactic changes.
For sme reason rayskin became more common during that later Qing, but unfortunately it was also used on crappy swords which were more decorative objects than weapons.

2, Peter is correct in regards placement of the seam when attaching leather or ray skin.

3, How many skins are required for a scabbard depends on
a. size of scabbard
b. dimensions of skins available
c. configuration of fittings -- the traditional 5-piece hardware vs the saber-type suspension with tiliang and bands popularized during the Qianlong period
d. THE NECESSITY OF MATCHING THE GRAIN. This depends on the grain structure of the hides themselves. The size of the "bumps" varies according to the anatomical location. A good quality scabbard would not have abrupt changes in grain size, even on areas on either side of a fitting.

4. If putting raw rayskin on a grip is a challenge, as one post suggested, it is a positive headache on a scabbard. Years ago, swordmaker Vince Evans and I learned from bitter experience that the stuff expands when wet (the material needs to be 'formed" to the scabbard contours after being soaked, much the way holster-makers mold sheets of cowhide to pistol shapes) and shrinks when dried. The shrinkage can squeeze a scabbard to the point where the blade no longer goes in. Using raw skin for sheathing not only involves polishing the bumps down and dying the material (the easy part) but a complicated regimen to counteract the shrinkage factor -- shaving the BACK of the skin down to make it as thin as possible, and making the scabbard core with an extra large channel to compensate for the inevitable compression during drying. This translates to a considerable amout of labor, and therefore, cost.

5. Peter is also right about the unsuitability of most soft tanned rayskin. An exception is stuff that I get through one source, it's already polished smooth, dyed to a green color commensurate with antiques, and when glued down it does present a hard surface. The one downside is that it does not have as much flex as the moistened raw skin, so it's very hard to stretch to glue onto curved contours and surfaces. The vast majority of the other tanned ray out there has the bumps still on, and it's impractical to try and smooth this material down to a flat polished surface because of the tanning process.