Good (Proper?) Dimensions of a Jian & Fittings

[bond_fan]

Hi All!

I'm building up a jian blade and was wondering what's the proper or good point of balance to have for an antique replica? My Tony Mosen wooden jian is about 670 grams with a POB of 6" = 15.24 cm. I'm wondering if that is a good POB to have for a jian that is 26" - 29" long from guard to tip?

I'm also wondering what is a good thickness at the guard, 50% point and the tip, so the blade is not to whippy?

Is a width of 1.25" = 3.175 centimeter a good width at the guard? I don't want a jian to be too wide or not wide enough.

Does anyone know if the slit to which the blade fits through the guard fittings is to small to accommodate the thickness and or width of the blade could it be enlarged, so the blade could fit?

Thanks!

[Peter Dekker]

Hi,

The p.o.b. you name seems about right. But be aware that p.o.b. is easily overrated in appreciating the feel of blades. Two blades with the exact same weight and p.o.b. can handle a lot differently because it matters a lot where the weight is exactly situated. Think of a stick with a weight on either end, or a similar stick with both weights in the middle. They will have the same weight and p.o.b. but will differ considerably in handling. The same goes for swords.

So even though this p.o.b. could be considered as being within historical limits, it is no guarantee for a blade that will feel like an antique. A width of 1.25 inch seems about right, a bit on the narrow side maybe but that is probably what you want if you are looking for a relatively light jian. My antique jian is 38 mm wide at its base, handles wonderfully, but weighs about 900 grams.

In my experience you'd want at least 5mm thickness at the guard, preferrably 6 or even a little thicker. It will not only add rigidity, but also improve the balance if it is very thick here. My jian is 8mm at its base and 5mm midway and its blade is incredibly rigid.*

(*Also for most part due to very good Chinese steel, hardly any smith can match this today. It cannot be achieved by using industrial type steel, but rather to produce one's own ore with proper historical amounts of sulphur, carbon and manganese.)

Does anyone know if the slit to which the blade fits through the guard fittings is to small to accommodate the thickness and or width of the blade could it be enlarged, so the blade could fit?

Which guard fittings? You mean you've got standard sets available? I'm interested!
But if it concerns reproduction fittings, anything would be allowed to make a proper fit to the blade including widening any slit.

On weight: A steel sword of certain dimensions will have a certain weight, so it will be almost impossible for any smith to make a sword according to set length and thicknesses, while maintaining to a certain weight which may or may not be achieved when keeping strictly to these dimensions.

Also, when a lot of weight is situated in the hilt and the first quarter or so of the blade , it will feel very lively while a lighter sword with its weight more equally divided over its blade may strain the arm a lot more. So low weight is not always a guarantee for a good sword either if it means the weight is not well distributed along its length.

-Peter

[Nik]

The dimensions you mentioned are about right, although the sample I made copies of was 37mm wide and 6.5 thick. You can say that you, if not using tricks like folding around alu or other light material cores, define exactly the weight of the blade you get with the dimensions of the sword at the guard, tip, and the width of the edge from guard to tip. There are a lot of different steels you can use, and they will all vary in the outcome. I don't know if you can get the same stiffness with todays steel, but I would guess you can. However, such steels may yield other compromises, or could be a bit on the expensive side (tank barrell steel from the german Leopard II, or gunship armor plates).

This is also the problem with overtly heavy fittings, especially pommels that correct the POB o f a poorly made blade with excessive weight in the pommel. The handling will be a lot different.

I can also tell you that the small difference of 6 to 6.5" will make a huge difference, leading to a completely different way of handling the blade. My 6.5" light blade moves VERY fast, you can strike incredibly quick out of the wrist, but that already gives a bit of strain on the body from the impact. The 6" is considerably slower, moving different. The POBs you find on various "battle ready combat swords" of 4" or 9" are completely bogus, these are axes or pencils.

[Nik]

Peter, I will get these fittings:

[Peter Dekker]

This is also the problem with overtly heavy fittings, especially pommels that correct the POB o f a poorly made blade with excessive weight in the pommel. The handling will be a lot different.

Indeed, in my experience Chinese blades (whether dao or jian) are primarily balanced by their blade shape and much less so by the choice of fittings. Even sturdy Chinese fittings often have large hollows in them, not counter balancing the blade too much. Much of their good handling characteristics are due to the blade geometry such as distal taper.

I've got one very heavy short saber with a heavy pommel that weighs 100 grams, but when taking the hilt off I noticed that there isn't much difference in handling when the pommel is on or off. This is because the handle is rather short so the pommel has practically no leverage on the blade. The saber plays well because it is about 8mm at its base but quickly tapers to a more gentle 5mm further up the blade.

Tim,
Nice set of longquan repro fittings that appear pretty close to historical models I've seen. When using these, make sure you fit the jian with a long enough handle so the quillons won't get in the hand when playing. Especially when using the correct "brush grip". Zhou Zheng Wu used to make his jian with these fittings, and with a very short handle so the quillons got in my hand all the time.

-Peter

[bond_fan]

Peter & Nik,

Thanks for your suggestions! Obviously this will be no easy decision on what dimensions and weight for this jian, but I hope to come to a sound decision in time.

Peter, your also mentioning your experiences with the type of center ply steel is helping me as well. To hear that a 1050 mono steel dao's edge does not hold up so well is interesting. I know that other persons have said that it isn't just the type of steel used, but also how it was hardened makes a difference as well.

I noticed that many makers of Japanese katana are using 1075 mono steel for swords used exclusively for cutting. I hope to ask one of the smiths if they would use a less ridged steel on their san mai blades.

Thanks again!

[Nik]

It's actually the historical meaning of a sanmei construction to hold up the edge well, not consuming too much precious high duty steel, and shock-dampening the hard core of the sword. The reason why some people would use a certain 1050 steel is often that the one they use is cheaper than one that would be a better "duty steel", or is easier on the parameters of the hardening process. A steel that is difficult to handle means you have a higher rate of failure, or can use only experts doing it.

Another issue is, what means "hold up well" ? You often need to have a trade-off between wear resistance (no need to resharpen often), durability (edge doesn't chip off), and sharpness. Butchers knifes are incredibly sharp, made from soft steel, but need to be resharpen frequently (i.e, all the time). You also have different meanings of the blade when it's a saber used on horse "just riding it through the opponent" (the horse adds a lot of physical force), or a straight sword used on foot, often in infighting, as a self-defence weapon.

The best thing you can do is to get an accurate sword that does not "ease up on cutting" by having a flat diamond shape or even hollow layout, but one that is more oriented at correct use. Even a not so incredibly sharp edge can cut through objects easily when the cut is perfect. So better take a ballistic edge which would offer more resistance to chipping, and enforces good correct technique. For example, I was trained to not cut with the center of the sharp zone, but the tip only, using only 1-2" to cut. You only need a center hit when cutting off limbs, or decapitating, which obviously was not the philosophy I learned. I would on the other hand vote for thinking of it as a sportive skill, the other thing is not nice on the mind. I can hardly imagine to explain to a kid that it should think of slicing a leather protected throat or penetrating the leg arteries when practicing.

P.S.: The stiffness of the blade is also influenced strongly by the exact shape of the distal taper. If the sword is tapered also in thickness to a rather flat, thin diamond, it becomes flexible, the more the thinner the front gets.

[bond_fan]

Hi All!

Rodell Laoshi is back from teaching in Europe and I was I able to get clarification from him on my 600 gram limit. What he told me about antique jian is the 600 gram limit is for the blade alone, not including fittings. He said with fittings it could easily bring the total weight up to 750 grams or more.

He said the wooden training jian (Sword) must be at least 600 grams, which is the minimum weight for the Traditonal Chinese Swordsmanship League (TCSL) Tournament, but also that weight helps the student get used to training with a sword of almost authentic antique jian dimensions. He said in the future the minimum weight requirements for the TCSL Tournament will probably be increased to 650 or 700 grams in the future.

He added that real antique jian with fittings where the total weight is from 800 - 1100 grams is correct, though 1100 grams is heavy and most would be under 1 kg.

Sorry for the confusion on my part and thanks for everyone who help me with this!