A J-sword collector turns to the West

[alfanator]

Hello. First posting here. I have been collecting and training in J-swords for over 20 years but have a keen interest in Chinese swords for about as long as i could remember. It is a tough field ...for every 500 J-swords i see maybe one good Chinese one but many bad fakes. I really appreciate the efforts by the folks here to advance its appreciation and study.

Now that I find myself living in Shanghai for a couple of years for the day job, I would like to dive deeper into the study and appreciation of Chinese steel swords. Any good local resources to seek out in Shanghai or China? Any good resources to study?

Some simple questions that i have been pondering...
I have seen a few decent Duan Jians in the market, were these used quite a bit by the civilian population?
Is there any historical data on square handled vs. round handled daos? The former seems rather uncomfortable to use.

[Peter Dekker]

Hi,

Welcome to the forum, and I'm pleased to read about your growing interest in Chinese arms. Only few Japanese sword enthusiasts venture into Chinese territory, for reasons yet unclear to me. As much as enthusiasts of Chinese can enrich themselves by looking at similarities between Chinese Islamic arms, Japanese enthusiasts can learn more by looking at the similarities and differences between Chinese and Japanese arms.

Unfortunately Shanghai doesn't have much when it comes to antique arms. Beijing is really the city to see them, in the Military Museum and Palace Museum and in rare occasions on the markets. (Though well over 99% are fakes, or composites with fake blades in old fittings.)

There are a large number of duanjian on the market that date from the late 19th century. Although they often look alike, there is some difference in blade quality. None of them are very significant in terms of workmanship, most are downright rubbish. Little is known about their use, many were also just made for the curio trade and never meant to be used. Some examples with good steel blades that survived tell us that there was also a serious market for such swords. One portrait comes to mind with a Manchu bannerman that appears to have a high quality duanjian with golden fittings and ray-skin covered scabbard, displayed along with calligraphy brushes and a teapot to show off his literary side.

There is some historical data on the round and square handled sabers. Period regulations like the Daqing Huidian and Huangchao Liqi Tushi describe mostly the square handled type (fangshi or "anglular style". The change to the round style (yuanshi) seemed to have began in the second half of the 18th century and the style became predominant about a century later, to having replaced the angular style completely by the late 19th century. Artwork and remaining examples show and confirm this shift.

Contrary to what many assume, these angular-styled hilts are actually very comfortable to the hand. To my opinion they give a somewhat better sense of blade-alignment as well.

-Peter

[alfanator]

The Japanese did learn to make swords from the Chinese and Koreans afterall. Although I must say that the Japanese did a much better job than the Chinese in preserving their swords and sword making arts, that is probably why there is little cross over. Different cultures, perspectives and history contributed to that. I also have an small interest in Islamic swords, wootz amazes me in its simple beauty. It would not be surprised but very delighted to find a Chinese mounted wootz blade

Well, I will be in Beijing next week for a business trip. I might stay an extra day or two to check out the Museums. Been to the Palace Museum a few times in the past, they did not have too many swords. The Ming Tombs did have a few nice items when i went in Feb this year.

[bond_fan]

According to Rodell Laoshi, the jian has a rounded handle to facilitate the movements of the jian cuts & defenses, and the dao is rectangular, because the majority of its cuts and defenses are longer strokes to generate power to cut through armor and require less intricate and subtle angle changes. I hope I said that correctly Laoshi?

[Peter Dekker]

Goishikawa,

I'm afraid you're on the wrong forum for two reasons:
1. It is a historical Chinese arms forum, and "ninja" is the word for a type of Japanese mercenary that drew on effective strategies instead of Samurai honor code.
2. The straight "ninja swords" you link to are a modern invention, not historical. If a ninja would have carried a sword he would have used something commonly used in Japan, and not a distinctive special style that made him clearly look like a ninja, something they clearly wanted to avoid.

You are of course most welcome if you're interested in historical Chinese arms.

The Japanese did learn to make swords from the Chinese and Koreans afterall. Although I must say that the Japanese did a much better job than the Chinese in preserving their swords and sword making arts, that is probably why there is little cross over. Different cultures, perspectives and history contributed to that. I also have an small interest in Islamic swords, wootz amazes me in its simple beauty. It would not be surprised but very delighted to find a Chinese mounted wootz blade

It is indeed a shame what happened to China during the Cultural Revolution. So many long traditions have been cut off, and so many craftsmen today trying to re-invent old arts with various degrees of success.

For the better preserving of Japanese swords, I would say yes and no. They did a an excellent job in preserving their swords, and even some wonderful Tang dynasty examples that would have been lost forever had they stayed in China. But the trend of polishing every little blemish out of the steel will eventually wear Japanese swords down to nothing if this continues. Personally I like Philip Tom's approach better where a concession is made between removing as many pits as possible, and keeping the original contours and handling characteristics of the blade largely intact. It may at times result in a less pristine looking weapon, but one that still looks and feels much like how the original maker has intended it.

According to Rodell Laoshi, the jian has a rounded handle to facilitate the movements of the jian cuts & defenses, and the dao is rectangular, because the majority of its cuts and defenses are longer strokes to generate power to cut through armor and require less intricate and subtle angle changes.

This is my perception also, the bulging handle of the jian makes possible more precise deployment of its tip. Although I don't think the dao would be able to cut through most armor, it probably was used to deliver hard percussive blows through armor but eventually one would have to attack an unarmored part of the duifang's body. But you're right in that it relies more on generating power in larger circular movements than the typical jian style. By the 19th century, there was hardly any armor left on the battlefield though.

-Peter

[josh stout]

I also have an small interest in Islamic swords, wootz amazes me in its simple beauty. It would not be surprised but very delighted to find a Chinese mounted wootz blade .

Stone shows an example of a Chinese mounted wootz blade, but I would not hold my breath waiting for another. Still, wootz is not something that is looked for on Chinese blades so there could be some unexamined blades with wootz hiding under a patina out there somewhere. If the wootz were high contrast enough to be obvious it would most likely have been noticed already. What you always hope to spot is something that has not been noticed before. I once saw a twist core dao sold for $150 and I have seen one purchased for even less than that.

Finding a Chinese wootz blade would be like winning the lottery.


On the topic of Japanese swords, I went to the recent exhibit at the Met and was blown away. The Chinese just did not approach their swords in the same way. The Chinese saw them primarily as tools or status symbols, as apposed to the almost fetishistic Japanese view of the sword as emblematic of their soul and national identity. What a gift it is to collectors of Japanese swords to have the makers sign and date their work. Seeing 16th c. appraiser’s marks on the tang of a 14th c. sword, accompanied by complete paperwork is beyond anything that can be found in the world of Chinese arms. The closest comparison would be a few individually numbered 18th c. swords made for the emperor with accompanying court records.

Keep in mind that despite the many problems for Chinese collectors, the actual pieces can be of remarkable quality. The tool grade village weapons do not look like much, and are very difficult to date, but their blades are well made and sturdy with very hard edges. Military sabers often have extremely well made blades with more refinement than the village blades. Where one runs into lower quality steel is in the things made at the end of the Qing or in the Republican era where many pieces were made for show and export to tourists. Collectors often like these pieces because they are in good condition, but they are less desirable from a martial point of view.
Josh

[Sabor]

Hi, any body interested in some central Asian possibly Afghan swords? they are not ancient but their age is between 80 to 100 years.

Sabor

[Scott M. Rodell]

... I once saw a twist core dao sold for $150 and I have seen one purchased for even less than that.

Finding a Chinese wootz blade would be like winning the lottery.

Find a twist core antique blade for $150 was like winning a very big lottery... several years ago a sightly worn dao with a twist core blade, & no scabbard was being offered for $25,000 in Beijing...

[Nik]

A twisted-core blade means, a blade with an inserted monosteel / wootz cutting layer forming the edge, sandwiched in an envelope of rows of torsion ("turkish") laminate ?

[Peter Dekker]

Hi Nik,

No, twist-core generally only refers to the technique of bars of laminated steel being heated and twisted, and welded together into a blade.

It doesn't necessarily have an inserted hardened edge section -though it often does- but they come in a variety of constructions. A small group of twist-core jian for example has two twisted bars done with alternating hard and softer steels. The edge on these feather-like blades forms almost microscopic serrations. Other twist-core blades don't have inserted hardened edges might have a stacked edge instead, etc.

As for a $150,- twist-core, wow, I wish I'd ever come across one that cheap! It is possible, but only if the seller has no clue of what he has which is rare these days.

-Peter