Hamon on Chinese Swords?
Moderators:Scott M. Rodell, Philip Tom
Pictured are close-up shots of a polished window on an interesting liuyedao, which probably dates from the 18th century. There appears to be no qiangang forging, no inserted high carbon steel edge? This blade seems to have a fairly nice pattern though.
The dark areas closer to the blade's edge seem similar to a hamon typically found on Japanese swords? Is it possible this could have been made in more of a traditional Japanese style with hamon, but no inserted high carbon steel edge like most Chinese swords from this era?
I was told this sword has lost its "temper", perhaps after being in a fire. Would a fire have caused this hamon style darkened areas?
I have seem antique Chinese swords exhibiting Japanese style hamon on them. I wonder if the hamon on them is visible due to the way they were forged or perhaps all swords can have a hamon, but they must be polished in such a way that the hamon must be brought out?
Are older Japanese swords made without the high carbon steel edge like Chinese ones? Japanese swords don't seem to have them?
Here is a link to a website showing various styles of hamon found on Japanese swords:
http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/terms/terms.htm
The one that seems to be on this liuyedao is called, Toran (Billowing).
Any other opinions on why this dao looks the say it does would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!
The dark areas closer to the blade's edge seem similar to a hamon typically found on Japanese swords? Is it possible this could have been made in more of a traditional Japanese style with hamon, but no inserted high carbon steel edge like most Chinese swords from this era?
I was told this sword has lost its "temper", perhaps after being in a fire. Would a fire have caused this hamon style darkened areas?
I have seem antique Chinese swords exhibiting Japanese style hamon on them. I wonder if the hamon on them is visible due to the way they were forged or perhaps all swords can have a hamon, but they must be polished in such a way that the hamon must be brought out?
Are older Japanese swords made without the high carbon steel edge like Chinese ones? Japanese swords don't seem to have them?
Here is a link to a website showing various styles of hamon found on Japanese swords:
http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/terms/terms.htm
The one that seems to be on this liuyedao is called, Toran (Billowing).
Any other opinions on why this dao looks the say it does would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!
- Peter Dekker
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Re: Hamon on Chinese Swords?
Hi,
It seems to me that this blade does have an inserted edge, but that it's just not very obviously visible. There are some hints to it on the narrow part of the "hamon". (Called shuangxue in Chinese.)
As for hamon-like effects on Chinese swords and sabers, they are seen with some frequency on the better blades. The technique widely used by the Japanese until today was even created by the Chinese and remained in use there for some time. The Chinese later seemed to have adopted combinations of tempering and annealing instead. Usually the hamon / shuangxue on Chinese swords don't have the clear demarcations that Japanese swords have, and hardly show the same amount of control, but sometimes they do. I don't know if this means they still used the clay-tempering methods such as seen on Tang era swords, but who knows. A smith with practical familiarity with these methods would be better fit to answer these questions than I can at this point.
(The short answer is that it is very unlikely to have formed by chance like this, and was probably made in this way.)
The thing with high-carbon steel is that it is not hard to begin with, the high carbon content just gives the steel a potential to become really hard, but only if properly heat-treated.
-Peter
It seems to me that this blade does have an inserted edge, but that it's just not very obviously visible. There are some hints to it on the narrow part of the "hamon". (Called shuangxue in Chinese.)
As for hamon-like effects on Chinese swords and sabers, they are seen with some frequency on the better blades. The technique widely used by the Japanese until today was even created by the Chinese and remained in use there for some time. The Chinese later seemed to have adopted combinations of tempering and annealing instead. Usually the hamon / shuangxue on Chinese swords don't have the clear demarcations that Japanese swords have, and hardly show the same amount of control, but sometimes they do. I don't know if this means they still used the clay-tempering methods such as seen on Tang era swords, but who knows. A smith with practical familiarity with these methods would be better fit to answer these questions than I can at this point.
As per my understanding, the hamon effect is created by the cooling of a blade from a certain high temperature to a certain low temperature within a certain time frame. I don't know the exact time frames and values but basically it will only form the crystalline structures in the steel when the edge portion is cooled much faster than the rest of the blade. The clearer the line, the bigger the differences in cooling between either side of this line. This is why the clearest demarcations can only be achieved by coating the part of the blade you don't want to cool too fast in a thick layer of clay. This is practically not possible in a fire, and really needs controlled work from the maker.bond fan wrote:I was told this sword has lost its "temper", perhaps after being in a fire. Would a fire have caused this hamon style darkened areas?
(The short answer is that it is very unlikely to have formed by chance like this, and was probably made in this way.)
As far as I know practically all traditional Japanese swords had an inserted hardened edge, but the effect of the hamon near the edge is usually much more clear than the hada, or line between the edge plate and softer forge folded body which may give an impression of an absence of a high-carbon edge.bond fan wrote:Are older Japanese swords made without the high carbon steel edge like Chinese ones? Japanese swords don't seem to have them?
The thing with high-carbon steel is that it is not hard to begin with, the high carbon content just gives the steel a potential to become really hard, but only if properly heat-treated.
-Peter
Knowing is not enough, we must apply.
Willing is not enough, we must do.
-Bruce Lee
http://www.mandarinmansion.com
Antique Chinese Arms & Functional reproductions
http://www.manchuarchery.org
Fe Doro - Manchu Archery
Willing is not enough, we must do.
-Bruce Lee
http://www.mandarinmansion.com
Antique Chinese Arms & Functional reproductions
http://www.manchuarchery.org
Fe Doro - Manchu Archery
Re: Hamon on Chinese Swords?
Peter,
Thanks for the information about this dao and Japanese sword construction! I hope one of the swordsmiths may also add their two cents about sword construction and hamon as well.
Thanks for the information about this dao and Japanese sword construction! I hope one of the swordsmiths may also add their two cents about sword construction and hamon as well.
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Re: Hamon on Chinese Swords?
I 've got a short Jian with what looks to be an incerted edge, perhaps i am wrong' and a hamon which is quite visible running along the blade from about 2/3rds up the blade and around the tip.
The hamon is quite ramdom looking in places' and does not look at all like it was mean't to be a feature of the blade. The Jian is of folded steel' but unfortunatly the patern is quite hard to see and the layers are only visible in some parts near the blade edge? even after restoration. It has a percular triangle riccaso' also.
I'll try to put some pics up this week.
Cheers'
The hamon is quite ramdom looking in places' and does not look at all like it was mean't to be a feature of the blade. The Jian is of folded steel' but unfortunatly the patern is quite hard to see and the layers are only visible in some parts near the blade edge? even after restoration. It has a percular triangle riccaso' also.
I'll try to put some pics up this week.
Cheers'
Re: Hamon on Chinese Swords?
Cool Tony!
I've seen pictures of swords from the Huang Fu book that have hamons on them, but they look more like a Japanese style with definite patterns.
I've seen pictures of swords from the Huang Fu book that have hamons on them, but they look more like a Japanese style with definite patterns.
Re: Hamon on Chinese Swords?
Tony sent me pictures to post of his jian in his above reply to post for him. Here it is:
Re: Hamon on Chinese Swords?
This looks a bit weird with the cutting edge layer sticking out of the middle section, I wonder how you can do something like this.
Re: Hamon on Chinese Swords?
What are you talking about?
Re: Hamon on Chinese Swords?
The same lighter material that forms the cutting edge comes out of the darker, softer outer cheeks also in the center line of the blade, i.e., you have not only a hamon on the edges but also one in the middle (upper pic of the two). That does not look like a coloring from clay etc. but really the same material being exposed from grinding. I wonder how that middle layer can come through on the top of the "diamond" shape of a sanmei construction. I have an idea, but would like to hear others first.
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- Peter Dekker
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Re: Hamon on Chinese Swords?
Hi guys,
I don't really see the hamon-like effect you are talking about, but perhaps it's just me. These things can be hard to spot on pictures sometimes.
Regarding the inner layer being exposed at the blade's ridge, I think Nik is right in it being the same material. However, I would think that it is rather likely not part of the layer that forms the cutting edge. It could be one of those "wumei" constructed jian that have five layers, the two outer most also being hard to provide extra rigidity.
Scott Rodell briefly mentions this construction in his book.
-Peter
I don't really see the hamon-like effect you are talking about, but perhaps it's just me. These things can be hard to spot on pictures sometimes.
Regarding the inner layer being exposed at the blade's ridge, I think Nik is right in it being the same material. However, I would think that it is rather likely not part of the layer that forms the cutting edge. It could be one of those "wumei" constructed jian that have five layers, the two outer most also being hard to provide extra rigidity.
Scott Rodell briefly mentions this construction in his book.
-Peter
Knowing is not enough, we must apply.
Willing is not enough, we must do.
-Bruce Lee
http://www.mandarinmansion.com
Antique Chinese Arms & Functional reproductions
http://www.manchuarchery.org
Fe Doro - Manchu Archery
Willing is not enough, we must do.
-Bruce Lee
http://www.mandarinmansion.com
Antique Chinese Arms & Functional reproductions
http://www.manchuarchery.org
Fe Doro - Manchu Archery
Re: Hamon on Chinese Swords?
That's what I thought - but for a different reason. You get this when you use a pre-made sanmei rawling for the outer layers, when grinding out the inner cutting layer on those.
- Peter Dekker
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Re: Hamon on Chinese Swords?
Nik, what do you mean by "rawling", is this similar to a billet?
I don't know whether it would be useful to use a pre-made sanmei billet just for the outer layers. Seems like a lot of grinding to do until you get to that core, the whole upper layer should be removed to get this far. If using a pre-made sanmei billet, I would guess they would use it to produce the whole sword with instead of just one side.
-Peter
I don't know whether it would be useful to use a pre-made sanmei billet just for the outer layers. Seems like a lot of grinding to do until you get to that core, the whole upper layer should be removed to get this far. If using a pre-made sanmei billet, I would guess they would use it to produce the whole sword with instead of just one side.
-Peter
Knowing is not enough, we must apply.
Willing is not enough, we must do.
-Bruce Lee
http://www.mandarinmansion.com
Antique Chinese Arms & Functional reproductions
http://www.manchuarchery.org
Fe Doro - Manchu Archery
Willing is not enough, we must do.
-Bruce Lee
http://www.mandarinmansion.com
Antique Chinese Arms & Functional reproductions
http://www.manchuarchery.org
Fe Doro - Manchu Archery
Re: Hamon on Chinese Swords?
In german it's a "Rohling", the combined 3 layers before hammering that piece out into the blade. Of course you cannot hammer the whole thing onto your cutting layer since it will be much too big and heavy. It's just an idea why a not so incredibly well made blade would have a five layer structure.
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- Peter Dekker
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Re: Hamon on Chinese Swords?
Hi,
I would have to have it in my hands to know for sure but to me the quality of this jian doesn't look too bad at all judging from the pictures: I see a straight center ridge, straight edges, pretty controlled forging with no apparent forging flaws and no recesses. Just some scratches that appear recent.
The brass fittings you see depicted are reproductions but I think that iron thing could be original to the blade. It doesn't look too fancy, but not badly shaped at all compared to many militia type jian with good steel blades but rustic fittings. The quality of forging of some Chinese blades, even those with relatively simple fittings and finish, is sometimes astounding.
-Peter
I would have to have it in my hands to know for sure but to me the quality of this jian doesn't look too bad at all judging from the pictures: I see a straight center ridge, straight edges, pretty controlled forging with no apparent forging flaws and no recesses. Just some scratches that appear recent.
The brass fittings you see depicted are reproductions but I think that iron thing could be original to the blade. It doesn't look too fancy, but not badly shaped at all compared to many militia type jian with good steel blades but rustic fittings. The quality of forging of some Chinese blades, even those with relatively simple fittings and finish, is sometimes astounding.
-Peter
Knowing is not enough, we must apply.
Willing is not enough, we must do.
-Bruce Lee
http://www.mandarinmansion.com
Antique Chinese Arms & Functional reproductions
http://www.manchuarchery.org
Fe Doro - Manchu Archery
Willing is not enough, we must do.
-Bruce Lee
http://www.mandarinmansion.com
Antique Chinese Arms & Functional reproductions
http://www.manchuarchery.org
Fe Doro - Manchu Archery
Re: Hamon on Chinese Swords?
Do you think this is an old blade ? For such, it would look actually very precise.