short stick form

Sword typology and Edge Weapons forms of the Chinese Empire and related cultures with an emphasis on their relationship to Swordsmanship.

Moderators: Scott M. Rodell, Philip Tom

Post Reply
the_disciple123
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 5:02 pm

short stick form

Post by the_disciple123 » Fri Oct 03, 2008 5:24 pm

hello everyone,


I was wondering if there was in fact a yang style short stick form.When i say short stick i am referring too walking stick length or less just to clearifie. The short stick or cane has always interested me in terms of form and application. Any incite or advice anyone would be willing to divulge about my inquire would be most appreciated.

Scott M. Rodell
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 1364
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:50 pm
Location: Virginia
Contact:

Re: short stick form

Post by Scott M. Rodell » Sat Oct 04, 2008 7:11 am

the_disciple123 wrote:... was in fact a yang style short stick form...
Not historically, there is no mention in any of the Yang Family writings, or those by their direct students, of the first three generations of Yang Family teaching any weapons other than jian, dao, gun and chiang. Later teachers in the Yang lineage created new forms such as the walking stick & the fan. T.T. Liang created his own stick form & Wang Yen-nien created a fan form.

I never spoke with Wang Laoshi about the creation of fan form directly, but classmates explained to me that he created it because some Chinese women didn't like doing a sword form. His Yen-nien Fan Form is essentially a hybrid half form made of modified hand & jian form movements.

Image

T.T. Liang

the_disciple123
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 5:02 pm

Post by the_disciple123 » Sat Oct 04, 2008 3:45 pm

thank you Scott for the reply.I do have a question though about T.T. Liang's stick form, is it still learned in many yang style schools or was is taught only to a few people?I am interested in learning such a form, if there were any material available on the subject that you or anyone could bring to my attention i would be most gracious.

Scott M. Rodell
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 1364
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:50 pm
Location: Virginia
Contact:

Post by Scott M. Rodell » Sun Oct 05, 2008 9:16 am

the_disciple123 wrote:... a question though about T.T. Liang's stick form, is it still learned in many yang style schools or was is taught only to a few people?I am interested in learning such a form, if there were any material available on the subject that you or anyone could bring to my attention i would be most gracious.
I believe Master Liang taught his "Cane" form to many students, but personally, the only weapon I studied with him is the jian. So my knowledge of the Cane is quite limited. My classmate & senior student of Liang, Paul Gallagher produced a how to video that includes instuction on Liang's Tai Chi Cane form that you might find useful, see-
http://www.totaltaichi.com/index.htm

tennytigers
Rank: Frequent Contributor
Posts: 16
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:02 pm
Location: australia

Post by tennytigers » Sun Oct 05, 2008 5:00 pm

have a look on the you tube for michael gilmans two man stick form,it will give anyone a well set out series of 8 clips to work with,at times he is a little unrealistic but it is a good form to play with.
i am currently teaching it to a student who has learnt our cane form and it gives a good basis to work from.
the way that can

Dan Pasek
Rank: Yang Chenfu
Rank: Yang Chenfu
Posts: 45
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2004 2:12 pm
Location: Pittsboro, NC

Post by Dan Pasek » Mon Oct 06, 2008 3:20 pm

I had heard that T.T. Liang's stick form was adapted from dao form movements, and could be performed with a dao if desired.

taiwandeutscher
Rank: Chang San feng
Rank: Chang San feng
Posts: 83
Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:26 am
Location: Gaoxiong, Taiwan, R.o.C.

Post by taiwandeutscher » Mon Oct 06, 2008 8:23 pm

Stuart Olson came to Taiwan many years ago to get a long stuff form. I still wonder why? Different to the cane?

He went to see his Masters friend, Master Song Zhijian, the Yijian founder, where he filmed a stuff form with 36 figures/pictures.

There should be some vid available through him.
hongdaozi

Scott M. Rodell
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 1364
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:50 pm
Location: Virginia
Contact:

Post by Scott M. Rodell » Wed Oct 08, 2008 7:47 am

Dan Pasek wrote:... T.T. Liang's stick form was adapted from dao form ... performed with a dao...
I think we could say that of most, if not all, sword forms. The obvious difference is that swords cut & sticks hit, so you have to modify the movements & move accordingly. In the past I trained to use my sword as a stick by practicing the basic cuts with a stick on a tire. This isn't bad strength training either & may be similar to striking an armored duifang with a sword.

Knowing T.T. Liang, I would not be surprised if he drew from several sources to create his cane form. In his expanded Yang system, the cane was a stepping stone weapon that one used to begin training with weapons where one didn't need to pay close attention to edge angle, using the blade flat, etc, that one must when using a blade. There are certainly some jian movements in his cane form.

xingyi24
Rank: Yang Chenfu
Rank: Yang Chenfu
Posts: 34
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 2:45 pm
Location: Greenbelt MD

Re: short stick form

Post by xingyi24 » Thu May 07, 2009 10:09 pm

For what I’m about to write, I’m speaking here from a Xingyichuan perspective, in case some of the things I’m about to mention come out of left field, and I apologize if my explanations are unclear.

As someone that carries a cane from need, and consequently has had a lot of time to study it as a weapon, while waiting for buses, trains, phone calls, etc, and because it’s practical to practice with a medically prescribed “weapon,” there is a vast correlation between the dao and the stick. Both take a great advantage from torque and the fact that you won’t cut yourself while entwining your head, however, you’ll also never cut anyone, like Mr. Rodell says. Thrusting maneuvers that aren’t targeted to pierce the body go right out the window. There is no thrust aiming to nearly miss in order to slice. Of course there is also a chance for correlation between the stick and anything else. One benefit is that the whole stick is a handle, and staff techniques come in handy for trapping, uprooting, and sweeping. What is your intention, and does the nature of the weapon let you do it? If it doesn’t do what you want it to, can you change it so it will?

When I was first injured I was given a wheel chair, that I never sat in out of pride, and a cane to lean on that was supposed to only be used to get in and out of that chair. The cane was a basic crook, and it is fast and can grab. I then strengthened my legs by standing while swinging and stabbing staves into that wheel chair until the chair was in pieces, and when the staff that broke the chair finally broke itself, I couldn’t part with it, so I turned it into a cane with a hame top.

It was balanced like a jian for speed, but turned over it’s an absolute bludgeon. Which is better? I don’t know? You tell me.

Since it’s not a training tool that I’ve ever found much tradition with, it seems like an ideal place to start for someone to meditate on the core principles of whatever their art is so they can internalize them in the study, and externalize them into an application of a new medium of their own, without offending the traditions. It lets you see how you have grown into the art, or how the art has grown into you…I’m not sure which. Although there are roads that other men have built to self realization, it sometimes is a gift to take in the scenery of the wild roads.

Tony Mosen
Rank: Yang Chenfu
Rank: Yang Chenfu
Posts: 30
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2004 9:53 am
Location: Perth, Australia

Re: short stick form

Post by Tony Mosen » Sat May 09, 2009 11:28 am

I lear'nt a walking stick form from one of my teachers' he called it 'Beggers Stick' and said it came from Chinese underground syndicates (Beggers Clan) when weapons were forbidden.
It is a great little form with lotts of Dimak applications and smashing into the joints. Hav'nt done it for a while but i think it is one of those rare gems, not many people seem to teach this kind of thing from what i see.

User avatar
Tashi James
Rank: Chang San feng
Rank: Chang San feng
Posts: 184
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 8:40 pm
Location: 2012 Sydney
Contact:

Re: short stick form

Post by Tashi James » Sat Oct 03, 2009 12:54 am

From a filipino Arnis perspective.

Stick is used as a safe medium but also became a weapon of choice in later history. It incorpororates thrusts so piercing is possible strike easily leave welt with rattan but with the chosen kamagong wood [very dense heavy ironwood] it breaks bones and can easily rupture soft tissue and organs.

I would assume that a cane application in the Taijiquan context could be quite effective with correct intent and body mechanics.
"There is nothing that does not become easier through familiarity" (Santideva).

"We become what we do repeatedly. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit" (Aristotle).

taiwandeutscher
Rank: Chang San feng
Rank: Chang San feng
Posts: 83
Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:26 am
Location: Gaoxiong, Taiwan, R.o.C.

Re: short stick form

Post by taiwandeutscher » Sat Oct 03, 2009 3:53 am

Without any asking for from any of us students, our teacher here in Taiwan suggested that we have a look into the 24 short stuff form from Chen Panling. That we did the last couple of months, it's easy to learn, as it is a mixture of sword and sabre techniques, but still a lot of fun, and one can also use an umbrella for it, so it might be much handier than any other weapon.
hongdaozi

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests