Jian/Dao suspension

[Conal]

Can anyone who has handled originals of each please give me an idea how they hung.

Were the blades parallel to the ground or did the hilt tilt at a certain degree above parallel ?

Thanks

[Peter Dekker]

Old swords and sabers very rarely have their suspension systems left intact.

For this, all we need to do is look at old artwork and see how their equipment is worn. Below the 18th century portrait of Zhanyinbao, from the collection of the Metropolitan Museum, who portrays the typical Manchu way of wearing the saber:



Jian apppear to have been worn both with the hilt back and hilt forward, the latter may derive from the old Ming style of wearing the jian which may have endured well into the Qing.

It is also notable that some artwork depicting Ming musketeers also depicts them wearing their short sabers with the hilt backwards.

-Peter

[Philip Tom]

Some of you may wonder why the hilt points backward and doesn't lean forward as is the case with most European sword carry. There are several reasons why:
1. Note from the picture that the bow case is also worn on the left side. If the saber hilt inclined forward it would easily get tangled up with the bow.
2. To draw the saber, the left hand pushes the lower part of the scabbard back, rotating hilt forward. The right hand draws the blade EDGE UP, enabling the soldier to deploy much more quickly than if the edge were down (ever wonder why the samurai wore their catanas edge-up in their belts? or why Cossacks often slung their shashka scabbards edge-up?)
3. The hilt-back mode also allows an alternative draw: with right hand reaching across the small of the back, unsheathing blade to the right and flipping it round with a circular wrist motion to deliver a low sweeping forward cut (from the saddle) at an opponent on the right. This draw has been noted by at least one 17th cent. European observer of Manchu forces.

[Peter Dekker]

In contrast to the 17th century observation pointed out above by Philip, a number of 18th century paintings depict Manchu cavalry in battle with no scabbard at all. Manchu bow cases all have a ring attached to them and the bare blades are simply stuck through them. One painting depicts all cavalry with their swords in this manner, while another depicts both in-scabbard-hilt-backwards and bare-blade-through-ring methods.

Possible advantages:
a) The saber is more easily retreived with one hand
b) Enemy infantry would think twice about grabbing the bow case or bare blade
c) Less weight is taken on horseback

What is notable is that the men wearing their bare sabers stuck through the ring are invariably depicted with their hilts forward, it is not clear to me why they did this.

The picture below depicts infantry with their sabers in the scabbard and with the hilt backward, and the horsemen with their exposed blades hanging from their bow-cases. Note that they all have their bows out of the bow-case already, you never see them wear their sabers like this when the bow is still in the case.



-Peter

[Philip Tom]

The wearing of a naked saber stuck through a ring attached to a belt, as in the painting kindly provided by Peter, appeared to be a rare occurrence since this is about the only such depiction in Chinese art we have yet seen. But it brings to mind a copperplate engraving I saw somewhere, showing a fighter during the Greek war of independence against the Ottomans, in the 1820s. The man is shown with a couple of edged weapons in scabbards stuck in his sash, and he is aiming a flintlock, with a kilij (Turkish-type saber) dangling from one of his forearms by the wrist-strap attached via a hole in the pommel. Considering that the pistol he is about to fire couldn't be reloaded quickly, he probably had his reasons for keeping the saber ready at hand.

[HomoCaballus]

The wearing of a naked saber stuck through a ring attached to a belt, as in the painting kindly provided by Peter, appeared to be a rare occurrence since this is about the only such depiction in Chinese art we have yet seen. But it brings to mind a copperplate engraving I saw somewhere, showing a fighter during the Greek war of independence against the Ottomans, in the 1820s. The man is shown with a couple of edged weapons in scabbards stuck in his sash, and he is aiming a flintlock, with a kilij (Turkish-type saber) dangling from one of his forearms by the wrist-strap attached via a hole in the pommel. Considering that the pistol he is about to fire couldn't be reloaded quickly, he probably had his reasons for keeping the saber ready at hand.

In Europe it may not have been uncommon. There are several engravings showing sideswords carried by riders through a ring only. Very much like the mob controll police carries a baton.
The wellknown Duerer was a practising martial artist in the school of Lichtenauer and he produced quite a lot of very detailed work about fighting and arms. His engraving of a couple of mounted town guards is VERY informative.

I can understand quite readily the chinese solution illustrated above: the sabre is ready for use and the scabbard protects the horse from the live blade. Furthermore it is a brilliant solution to have sword and scabbrd together as that is far less disturbing to horse and rider than the two dancing about sepereately.

peter

[Peter Dekker]

Hi,

I am not sure how rare the bare-blade-through-ring method really is, but I've been able to identify four different illustrations that show this method that made me think it wasn't very rare, at least in the second half of the 18th century. What is notable is that you only see this in the heat of battle or right before it commences, and always when the bow is drawn. When the bow is in the holster, the saber appears invariably in a scabbard.

Three of these are paintings in the Palace Museum collection, one of which posted above, and the last is a copperplate engraving that appears in "Bilder fur die halle des purperglanzes" and is in the collection of the Ethnological Museum of Berlin.

The remaining two are reprinted in the Chinese publication Qingshi tudian, Part 6: Qianlong chao shang (Beijing, 2002) and although they appear quite small I can make out this way of carrying on two occasions. The other 9 battlescenes in this work either depict the cavalry in rest with their bow holstered, or in attack but from the "wrong" side where one cannot see their sabers or how they are worn.

To find out whether it was a structural or incidental practise I would like to know if anyone is aware of artwork of Qing horse archers with their bows draw but their sabers in the scabbards. I've only seen some on artwork depicting them together with those that wear them bare-bladed.

Also, Qing bow-holsters always have this ring but I can't think of any other use for them. The oval shape of these would help the blade's edge stay aligned as it was put in.

Peter,
Would it be possible to post the European artwork you mention? It would be interesting to see parallels. What was their primary weapon on the horse, and how was the ring attached?

-Peter

[HomoCaballus]

Peter,
Would it be possible to post the European artwork you mention? It would be interesting to see parallels. What was their primary weapon on the horse, and how was the ring attached?

THAT is going to be a challenge. I recall the engraving in detail and it was a late work by Albrecht Durer. He was however a VERY prolific artist and I have no idea where I encountered it.

The primairy weapon was a matchlock musket. The guards furthermore carried several pistols.
The reitschwert type sword was carried stuck through a ring attached to a belt on the left side.
The engraving shows the guns were discarded after use to be collected later.
The sword was a tertiairy weapon in the open, secondairy in town.

The common custom of metal plate armour and (later but overlapping) the widespread use of porteable firearms were noticeable differences between european and chinese warfare.

I will keep it in the back of my mind. I have seen more illustrations of blades carried bare so maybe will re-encounter one on the web.

Peter

[HomoCaballus]

With help from the myarmoury forum: Not from Durer but nevertheless quite illustrative:





Worth to notice are:
- how small (normal) these horse were and this is confirmed by archeological evidence
- the completely different style of riding (and saddles) compaired to the Chinese way (and also from the 'modern' style)

peter

[Peter Dekker]

Hi,

Interesting. It seems as if there is something that protects the tip of these swords but I can't quite figure out how this works.

What are the loose ribbons hanging from the back of the horse, as these purely decorational or would there be a function?

-Peter

[HomoCaballus]

The chape-like extention is source for speculation. The best I can up with is a wrap of tacky thin cloth to prevent the horse from puncturing itself by a mere scratch but no factual information has surfaced.

The dangling straps had bcome ornamental but had a function as a fly deterrent. Very much like the tassles that started out this way and became ornamental.
Over here tassles are still uses as a fly chaser on the forehead and I sometimes tie one under the cinch. The latter I have seen in middle america too and it would surpise me if the cattle drivers in the us did or do not know this use.

petrus