Hello,
I have wanted to get a bit of information about a couple of weapons and thought that I might as well just do one topic.
Dose anyone here train with Gen or Chai (Chinese version of the Sai)? In one of the Japanese arts I study Sai are one of the primary weapons we study. I have been trying to find out some more information about their Chinese counterparts. Some articles I have read say that Gen are longer and heavier and unlike Sai have sharpened tips however they are so rare practitioners simply use Sai because of their availability.
The other weapon I would like to learn ore about is the Yang family saber. To me it looks like the Yang saber is a willow leaf or goose quill saber with unique fittings and a slightly longer hilt but I could be mistaken.
Any insight into either of these weapons would be greatly appreciated, Thank you,
David
A bit of information
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Peter Dekker
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Chinese "sai" / Yang family saber
Hi David, welcome to the forum!
"Chinese sai"
I've seen and owned a number of these "Chinese sai". There is little uniformity in them but the ones I've seen were rather blunt, even more so than their Japanese counterparts. They had rectangular cross-sections instead of the round or octagonal ones common on Japanese examples.
I've often heard them being referred to as "iron ruler" and the "blade" indeed resembles a Chinese ruler. Some even have cun (imperial Chinese inches) engraved in them. I did not frequently encounter them in pairs but perhaps simply because the other one often got lost. These iron rulers don't always have a guard but sometimes just consist of a steel rod with a handle.
See pics below for an example I've had for a time. I don't have the dimensions and weight at hand but I recall that it was quite heavy and not very long. The heavy pommel made for quite a fast balance, but it felt as if it limited the striking power of the other end a bit.
As with the Japanese variety, those Chinese "sai" also come in two types: One with both arms curved forward and one type that has one arm curved up and one down. Of the latter I've got a pair that has sharp points and is rather long, 71 cm overall. They seem to be made in the industrial age from two cylindrical pieces of steel. The beaten out blades are irregular while the part normally under the grip wrap is too round to be hand-made, especially when considering the crudeness of the rest of the work. They might have been hand-made out of a piece of industrial steel taken from Western built equipment around the turn of the 1900's. The blades of this pair are of triangular crosssection with one flat side and one side with a central ridge. Other than what is common on double weapons, they will not fit in one scabbard side by side as the flat sides are on the same side of the weapons and the handle is round.
"Yangjia taijidao"
As for the Yang family saber, I recall that there has been discussion about this particular saber on this forum or another and the general outcome was that it was probably a variety of saber that at best might have been used by the Yang family at one point in time but was certainly not the kind of weapon that the art was formed around. I've only seen one antique example of this form before, they are extremely rare. In reality, most martial artists would just use what was already there.
-Peter
"Chinese sai"
I've seen and owned a number of these "Chinese sai". There is little uniformity in them but the ones I've seen were rather blunt, even more so than their Japanese counterparts. They had rectangular cross-sections instead of the round or octagonal ones common on Japanese examples.
I've often heard them being referred to as "iron ruler" and the "blade" indeed resembles a Chinese ruler. Some even have cun (imperial Chinese inches) engraved in them. I did not frequently encounter them in pairs but perhaps simply because the other one often got lost. These iron rulers don't always have a guard but sometimes just consist of a steel rod with a handle.
See pics below for an example I've had for a time. I don't have the dimensions and weight at hand but I recall that it was quite heavy and not very long. The heavy pommel made for quite a fast balance, but it felt as if it limited the striking power of the other end a bit.
As with the Japanese variety, those Chinese "sai" also come in two types: One with both arms curved forward and one type that has one arm curved up and one down. Of the latter I've got a pair that has sharp points and is rather long, 71 cm overall. They seem to be made in the industrial age from two cylindrical pieces of steel. The beaten out blades are irregular while the part normally under the grip wrap is too round to be hand-made, especially when considering the crudeness of the rest of the work. They might have been hand-made out of a piece of industrial steel taken from Western built equipment around the turn of the 1900's. The blades of this pair are of triangular crosssection with one flat side and one side with a central ridge. Other than what is common on double weapons, they will not fit in one scabbard side by side as the flat sides are on the same side of the weapons and the handle is round.
"Yangjia taijidao"
As for the Yang family saber, I recall that there has been discussion about this particular saber on this forum or another and the general outcome was that it was probably a variety of saber that at best might have been used by the Yang family at one point in time but was certainly not the kind of weapon that the art was formed around. I've only seen one antique example of this form before, they are extremely rare. In reality, most martial artists would just use what was already there.
-Peter
Knowing is not enough, we must apply.
Willing is not enough, we must do.
-Bruce Lee
http://www.mandarinmansion.com
Antique Chinese Arms & Functional reproductions
http://www.manchuarchery.org
Fe Doro - Manchu Archery
Willing is not enough, we must do.
-Bruce Lee
http://www.mandarinmansion.com
Antique Chinese Arms & Functional reproductions
http://www.manchuarchery.org
Fe Doro - Manchu Archery
Thanks Peter,
Those are very similar to what I have envisioned some of the very first Okinawan Sai to have looked like. I found a website the other day that talked about Gen, I wish I could find it again. It said that the Chinese versions where quite rare and that they more than likely died out long ago which is a real shame. Another sad thing is that there is only one traditional Sai maker in the world left, he told me that his teachers did not give him permission to pass the art on so when he dies so dose the craft of traditional Sai. The best description I can recall from the website is that they have a round cross-section on both blade and arms that where flattened and sharpened on the last 3 inches or so. This however is what one website said and could be incorrect.
I am thinking maybe the ones you posted Peter where made by Chinese martial artists who studied in Japanese arts or after seeing Sai in action decided to replicate them for use in their own arts forms.
I’m going to do some googleing tonight and see if I can find that website again.
Those are very similar to what I have envisioned some of the very first Okinawan Sai to have looked like. I found a website the other day that talked about Gen, I wish I could find it again. It said that the Chinese versions where quite rare and that they more than likely died out long ago which is a real shame. Another sad thing is that there is only one traditional Sai maker in the world left, he told me that his teachers did not give him permission to pass the art on so when he dies so dose the craft of traditional Sai. The best description I can recall from the website is that they have a round cross-section on both blade and arms that where flattened and sharpened on the last 3 inches or so. This however is what one website said and could be incorrect.
I am thinking maybe the ones you posted Peter where made by Chinese martial artists who studied in Japanese arts or after seeing Sai in action decided to replicate them for use in their own arts forms.
I’m going to do some googleing tonight and see if I can find that website again.
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Peter Dekker
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Hi David,
A warning about arms research from websites, most are terribly inaccurate. As they typically don't name any sources, we can almost assume that the information on them is orally spread and there is a vast load of nonsense about Chinese weapons coming from China itself. Often people tend to forget that martial arts masters, no matter how good in what they do, are often not historians or researchers.
The number of Chinese sai I've come across in a relative short period of time tends to suggest they were not that rare. Of course as civilian weapons they are more rare than military sabers, but quite a number still appear to circle the Chinese antique markets. You just don't see them in the west often because there is not a good market here for Chinese weapons other than swords and sabers. The majority of people that look to buy antiques either want officer's sabers, or the more well known weapons such as niuweidao and jian.
Have you found the character for this weapon somewhere? Gen might be a Cantonese expression but I won't know for sure until I've seen the character for Gen.
As for the traditional Sai maker that is letting the art die out, what a shame! Even though his teachers didn't tell him to pass on the art, I don't think they wanted it to completely die out. Is he located in Japan?
-Peter
A warning about arms research from websites, most are terribly inaccurate. As they typically don't name any sources, we can almost assume that the information on them is orally spread and there is a vast load of nonsense about Chinese weapons coming from China itself. Often people tend to forget that martial arts masters, no matter how good in what they do, are often not historians or researchers.
The number of Chinese sai I've come across in a relative short period of time tends to suggest they were not that rare. Of course as civilian weapons they are more rare than military sabers, but quite a number still appear to circle the Chinese antique markets. You just don't see them in the west often because there is not a good market here for Chinese weapons other than swords and sabers. The majority of people that look to buy antiques either want officer's sabers, or the more well known weapons such as niuweidao and jian.
Have you found the character for this weapon somewhere? Gen might be a Cantonese expression but I won't know for sure until I've seen the character for Gen.
As for the traditional Sai maker that is letting the art die out, what a shame! Even though his teachers didn't tell him to pass on the art, I don't think they wanted it to completely die out. Is he located in Japan?
Many native Chinese traditions died out in the 20th century, and being mostly practised by iliterate people some left no recordings whatsoever. For this reason it is quite possible that this weapon saw use in China up to fairly recent times without leaving any trace of the art but the actual weapons for us to study. Chinese martial artists were typically poor peasants that joined martial arts groups, and as such they were very unlikely to come into contact with foreign martial artists. The Japanese that went to China in the 19th century (from which the Chinese sai I've seen probably date) were either soldiers or diplomats, the soldiers already carried western firearms at the time.I am thinking maybe the ones you posted Peter where made by Chinese martial artists who studied in Japanese arts or after seeing Sai in action decided to replicate them for use in their own arts forms.
-Peter
Knowing is not enough, we must apply.
Willing is not enough, we must do.
-Bruce Lee
http://www.mandarinmansion.com
Antique Chinese Arms & Functional reproductions
http://www.manchuarchery.org
Fe Doro - Manchu Archery
Willing is not enough, we must do.
-Bruce Lee
http://www.mandarinmansion.com
Antique Chinese Arms & Functional reproductions
http://www.manchuarchery.org
Fe Doro - Manchu Archery
Hi Peter,
The Sai maker lives in America he was trained by the last of the Japanese makers and is the highest ranking Kobudo Sensei in the U.S. I really hope he changes his mind, I have seen other artisans who make them but they are not done traditionally and don’t look anywhere near as good as Peter’s, funny you guys have the same name.
Thanks for all of your help and clearing that up for me
The Sai maker lives in America he was trained by the last of the Japanese makers and is the highest ranking Kobudo Sensei in the U.S. I really hope he changes his mind, I have seen other artisans who make them but they are not done traditionally and don’t look anywhere near as good as Peter’s, funny you guys have the same name.
Thanks for all of your help and clearing that up for me
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taiwandeutscher
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Very interesting!
Though I do not train any of these short weapons, I know a supplier here in Taiwan, who does them in stainless steel, in both versions.
Here they are called Tiezhi 鐵尺 with both arms forwar
and Taizishou 太子手 with one arm both up and down.
They are ca. 2,4 kg with a length of 54 cm.
Even not trained to often, but there still are traditions alive, here in Taiwan.
Though I do not train any of these short weapons, I know a supplier here in Taiwan, who does them in stainless steel, in both versions.
Here they are called Tiezhi 鐵尺 with both arms forwar
and Taizishou 太子手 with one arm both up and down.
They are ca. 2,4 kg with a length of 54 cm.
Even not trained to often, but there still are traditions alive, here in Taiwan.
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josh stout
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Peter Dekker
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My example was forged, and most likely made of steel. It consisted of three parts: blade, guard and pommel. The latter was peened on. I would expect a cast example to be a one-piece construction. Mine also had hammer marks on all parts that appear to be caused in the making process, indicating a forged construction.
Perhaps cast iron would not be a suitable material to use for such weapons as it tends to be quite brittle.
-Peter
Perhaps cast iron would not be a suitable material to use for such weapons as it tends to be quite brittle.
-Peter
Knowing is not enough, we must apply.
Willing is not enough, we must do.
-Bruce Lee
http://www.mandarinmansion.com
Antique Chinese Arms & Functional reproductions
http://www.manchuarchery.org
Fe Doro - Manchu Archery
Willing is not enough, we must do.
-Bruce Lee
http://www.mandarinmansion.com
Antique Chinese Arms & Functional reproductions
http://www.manchuarchery.org
Fe Doro - Manchu Archery
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josh stout
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What about wrought iron? I am asking to eliminate possibilities, not because I think that is how they were made. Because these are weapons, the resilience and hardness of steel seems necessary.
Versions of these that seem more like traditional Chinese ones than the Japanese commercial variety are widely used by pencak silat. They are called cabang (cha-bung=branch) and are associated with Indonesian styles showing some Chinese heritage. Some of these styles may date to the Chinese Ming/Qing pirate traders that traded throughout the East Asian achipeligoes. The styles with obvious Chinese influence are certainly found near the older trading centers as one would expect.
They are also used by kuntao and other Chinese styles such as mine, which are from the more recent Chinese diaspora in the 1930s.
Josh
Versions of these that seem more like traditional Chinese ones than the Japanese commercial variety are widely used by pencak silat. They are called cabang (cha-bung=branch) and are associated with Indonesian styles showing some Chinese heritage. Some of these styles may date to the Chinese Ming/Qing pirate traders that traded throughout the East Asian achipeligoes. The styles with obvious Chinese influence are certainly found near the older trading centers as one would expect.
They are also used by kuntao and other Chinese styles such as mine, which are from the more recent Chinese diaspora in the 1930s.
Josh
hidup itu silat, silat itu hidup
-Suhu
-Suhu
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brianlkennedy
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Here in Taiwan the sai is used in the Sung Jiang Battle arrays (宋江鎮); which are kind of community militia performance that are more popular down island. These pages are taken from a modern high school manual on Sung Jiang training but the modern versions do most likely strongly reflect practices in Taiwan during the Qing dynasty prior to the arrival of the Japanese.
In this first page from the manual, if you look at the far left column the fifth guy from the top, is holding a sai.
Then in this second page from the manual, which shows the schematic of how the guys and their weapons are supposed to be laid out for different types of performances, you can see where the sai person is supposed to be.
The other interesting thing about the Sung Jiang Battle Arrays is that it reminds people of the major importance of the rattan shields. It seems in modern-traditional Chinese martial arts practice not much emphasis is given to training routines using a saber and shield. But in the Sung Jiang Battle arrays that combo, saber and shield is the most important one.
take care,
Brian
In this first page from the manual, if you look at the far left column the fifth guy from the top, is holding a sai.
Then in this second page from the manual, which shows the schematic of how the guys and their weapons are supposed to be laid out for different types of performances, you can see where the sai person is supposed to be.
The other interesting thing about the Sung Jiang Battle Arrays is that it reminds people of the major importance of the rattan shields. It seems in modern-traditional Chinese martial arts practice not much emphasis is given to training routines using a saber and shield. But in the Sung Jiang Battle arrays that combo, saber and shield is the most important one.
take care,
Brian
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Scott M. Rodell
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I've heard about these & wanted to come see the Battle Arrays for sometime. I found this link about them:brianlkennedy wrote:... in Taiwan the sai is used in the Sung Jiang Battle arrays (宋江鎮); which are kind of community militia performance...
http://www.sinica.edu.tw/tit/culture/0896_Array.html
but have not been about to find out when & where thet are held, can you tell us? Thanks...
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josh stout
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The battle array post completely amazed me. I had read about the tactics this preserves, but had no idea you could go and see a direct descendant of the Ming coastal battle formations. These were designed so that the strengths of a variety of weapons were used together by a team of soldiers to defeat pirates using very long swords. Amazing stuff. You should make a thread just on the battle array.
I notice that the tengpai people are using what looks like clipped tip choppers, or in the second illustration perhaps hudiedao. I had expected examples of piandao.
Josh
I notice that the tengpai people are using what looks like clipped tip choppers, or in the second illustration perhaps hudiedao. I had expected examples of piandao.
Josh
hidup itu silat, silat itu hidup
-Suhu
-Suhu
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brianlkennedy
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The heartland of the Sung Jiang Battle Arrays is a town down in Kaoshuing called Neimen(內門鄉)
Here is the county tourist website for it:
http://cultural.kscg.gov.tw/English/Cms ... 89505062,1
I have never been down there. The Sung Jiang performances that I have seen were sponsored by Lion Books as part of their week long Taiwan martial arts festival a few years back.
Here are a couple of screen grabs of one of the teams. I should mention I did not take these photos, credit belongs to Lion Books. This first one, and I know it is hard to see, but the guy closest to the camera is using sai.
This is shield being used with what I describe as the Taiwanese Bowie knife (meaning a large, frontier type knife).
And the Crane. I forget what the folk story is, but in particular this temple’s Sung Jiang team has part of their performance where you have the crane, the kid playing the Buddha and a guy doing a drunken style fist form. The teams are usually sponsored by and represent some Daoist temple.
take care,
Brian
Here is the county tourist website for it:
http://cultural.kscg.gov.tw/English/Cms ... 89505062,1
I have never been down there. The Sung Jiang performances that I have seen were sponsored by Lion Books as part of their week long Taiwan martial arts festival a few years back.
Here are a couple of screen grabs of one of the teams. I should mention I did not take these photos, credit belongs to Lion Books. This first one, and I know it is hard to see, but the guy closest to the camera is using sai.
This is shield being used with what I describe as the Taiwanese Bowie knife (meaning a large, frontier type knife).
And the Crane. I forget what the folk story is, but in particular this temple’s Sung Jiang team has part of their performance where you have the crane, the kid playing the Buddha and a guy doing a drunken style fist form. The teams are usually sponsored by and represent some Daoist temple.
take care,
Brian
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Scott M. Rodell
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Thanks for the link, unfortunately there is no dates given, or even the time of year the event is usually held. I'm assuming the festival is tied to a traditional date on the Chinese Calendar. Do you have any idea when it might be?brianlkennedy wrote:The heartland of the Sung Jiang Battle Arrays is a town down in Kaoshuing called Neimen(內門鄉)...