Yue Fei Dao

[omni]

Scott,

I was watching your video on two-handed swordsmanship and was surprised to see a picture of a Yue Fei Dao. Have you managed to find one? If so, would you mind sharing some details about it? I would certainly like to know more.

[Scott M. Rodell]

... a picture of a Yue Fei Dao...

Perhaps we should start by noting that the term Yue Fei Dao is quite a generic one. Within martial arts circles, it is said that General Yue Fei developed a bladed weapon for use in fighting the mounted Mongol invaders that was long enough to attack the mounted foe, but short enough to wield quickly in swordplay against these dismounted riders or infantry. To my knowledge, no one has been able to turn up a Song period painting or illustration showing troops wielding such a weapon. So other than saying the Yue Fei Dao has a grip to blade ratio of 1:1, we don't know exactly what it looked like during the General's time.

I have seen photos of Warlord troops armed with Yue Fei Dao.

... mind sharing some details about it? I would certainly like to know more.

At Seven Strars, we occationally find "Yue Fei Dao," we already sold the one in the video,* but it had a 29 1/2” long blade & was 39 1/2” long overall. I've encountered longer examples, but unfortunately, none are on hand to measure.

*the video Omni is referring to is:
Rediscovering the Chinese Long Sword
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... &plindex=0

[omni]

In your opinion Scott, is there anything else about a 'yue fei dao' that would differentiate it from a dadao, other than the 1:1 ratio, such as the blade curvature, or the balance?

The one in your video also appeared to have an unusual tip.

Thanks for your response!

[Scott M. Rodell]

...'Yue Fei Dao' ... differentiate it from a dadao, other than the 1:1 ratio, such as the blade curvature, or the balance?...

As you pointed out, the primary difference between these two type of dao would be the overall length & the handle to blade ratio. The Yue Fei Dao being the longer of the two, as they were meant to be used by infantry soldiers against a mounted foe. The term Dadao, like the term Yue Fei Dao is a general one, but generally speaking, it refers to a two-handed falcion that has a blade that is longer than the hilt, making it a true saber. As you know, the term dao is used, in Chinese, for any single edged weapon, regardless of length. So where in English we distingish swords from polearms, the Chinese don't have different terms for these. To my mind, a dao that has a longer hilt (i.e. pole) than blade is a polearm. What makes the Yue Fei Dao an interesting weapon is that it really sits right in between a saber & a polearm.

As a weapon that needed reach, the blades of Yue Fei Dao I have examined are usually rather straight. Dadao blades generally are slightly more curved than those of Yue Fei Dao, but I wouldn't say there is a great difference. And since Dadao were not pattern weapons, I'm sure we could find examples that are more deeply curved, as one example posted in this Forum: viewtopic.php?t=563

[Scott M. Rodell]

The problem with many Chinese terms is that one term may be used to discribe a variety of weapons...

For example, the caption for this image:



is: This is a diagonal chop of the Dadao, or Big Knife. The Big Knife techniques in Pakua Kungfu are similar to those in Shaolin Kungfu.

Here's another with the same weapon:



With the caption: Some people have the mis-conception that there are no weapons in Pakua Kungfu or Baguazhang. Here the Pakua master, Sifu Sun, demonstrates a reversed sweep of the Dadao, or Big Knife.

Clearly, this is a polearm commonly refered to as a Guandao, but is refered to in Qing period manuals as a Yanyue Dao or a Reclining Moon Dao

[Scott M. Rodell]

The problem with many Chnese terms is that one term may be used to discribe a variety of weapons...

But to my mind, these are examples of Dadao:

[josh stout]

So would a Yue Fei Dao then be the same as a podao?

http://s77.photobucket.com/albums/j65/p ... =dadao.jpg

I have been going nuts trying to pin down some names for these weapons. I have heard of the same thing called a zhanmadao (horse cutting knife) which I generally understand to have a more liuyedao type blade on a long handle of roughly equal length.

When the handle to blade ratio is 1.5:1 then it becomes a dadao again?

http://s77.photobucket.com/albums/j65/p ... e79_12.jpg

One person proposed the Chinese characters 撲刀, which I think, are an old form of the simplified Chinese 朴刀, which I think translates as podao.

The same person referenced "Outlaws of the marsh" where these long bladed weapons seem to sometimes have removable handles. If you take the idea of these weapons as essentially modified forms of common agricultural implements, some of the confusion seems to go away. The short pudao of Qing regulations becomes the long podao of the late Qing with the addition of a handle. Then, words such as Yue Fei Dao, and zhanmadao that I think were already associated with long bladed weapons became associated with these long handled dadao.

Are there regional versions of the names in the way a long sandwich can be a grinder, hero, hoagie, po-boy, or sub depending where you are from?

I think zhanmadao might be a more southern term?

I know I am trying to find fixed references to something that is fluid and amorphous, but it would be nice to know what we are all talking about.
Josh

[Scott M. Rodell]

So would a Yue Fei Dao then be the same as a podao?

No, I would say, that until one of us turns up a Song period illustration showing a Yue Fei Dao we can not say exactly what a Yue Fei Dao is, except in the most general terms.

... going nuts trying to pin down some names...

Welcome to the club. I would suggest sticking to printed primary sources & forget all Chinese martial arts sources, they are all confused.

... heard of the same thing called a zhanmadao (horse cutting knife) which I generally understand to have a more liuyedao type blade on a long handle of roughly equal length.

A zhanmadao does have a liuyedao type blade, but the blade is longer than the grip, here's an example of one:

When the handle to blade ratio is 1.5:1 then it becomes a dadao again?

When the ratio is in favor of the hilt, I call that a dadao, but that is how I avoid the confusion, calling all polearms by more specific names. As you know, a dadao could be just about anything these days... So I like to avoid using it at all if I can.

...zhanmadao might be a more southern term.

No, I would say it is an "official" term, having been used in the Qing Imperial Regulations.

[josh stout]

Here is an example of how I, and probably others, get confused.

http://sword.tacomall.com.tw/product/index.htm

If you go to the bottom link you will see several contemporary reproductions including what I think is a dadao that is listed as a zhanmadao. The handle is a bit longer than most dadao, so one person proposed that it was a podao. To me it still looks like it is on the dadao side of things.

Other confusing names for long handled blades include the dandao. In martial arts parlance, that would be a single sword used in a movement as opposed to the double sabers (shuangdao). However, it also appears to be another name for wodao and related to General Qi's campaign against the Japanese/Chinese pirates. I remember a discussion between Phillip and Scott on this topic. Here is what I think is a dandao in that context.
From "The Collection of Hands and Arms":

http://www.cd.org.tw/becute/big5/arm/arm1.htm

http://www.cd.org.tw/becute/big5/arm/arm2.htm

This would then perhaps be the ancestor of the miaodao, which I understand from previous threads we have no pictures of. The mioadao may be an ancestor of the Qing zhanmadao, which then becomes confused with other long handled weapons.
Josh

[Chris Fields]

Is there anyone who makes a good Zhanma Dao today?

[Seitch]

I believe that Fred Chen makes a zhanmadao replica of the one in Scott's picture.

[Chris Fields]

Oh, I love that design, do you have a link or anything for that? Thanks

[Chris Fields]

Silly me, I just realized that Fred Chen is the one who founded Huanuo and a few other forges. I went the the different forge web sites but did not find one similar to the one in Scot's picture. Am I correct in thinking that they make a few of each type of sword at a time, and that maybe they just haven't made any like that one lately? Thanks

[Peter Dekker]

Fred Chen is only behind one forge and that is Huanuo. Agents in several countries represent this forge, but there are no other actual forges under him.

As for their zhanmadao, they only produced about five of them and took them out of production. One of them got famous from the Thomas Chen sword website. I think last of these got produced some 2 years ago.

-Peter

[Chris Fields]

cool, thanks.