Pseudo history

[Peter Dekker]

Those interested in Chinese swords are fed with a vast flow of misinformation spread by "experts", most notably sword dealers and martial artists. This is not to say that these dealers and martial artists are deliberately lying, often people are repeating what they have heard without doing any actual research.

I previously refrained from commenting on such information spread on commercial websites because I sell swords myself. Unfortunately it seems things are not getting better without getting out in the open about it.

My suggestion is to post pseudo history and misinformation here and openly comment on it so we can help create a better environment for the study of historical Chinese swords.

-Peter

[Peter Dekker]

I recently encountered a typical case of pseudo history on a website selling swords. The following sword is described:



The description of the sword:

This classic jian was originally designed for the Qian Long Emperor and his family in the Qian dynasty (201-255 BC). This jian and its fighting style became very famous in China, both for its beauty and proven effectiveness in battle. It is this sort of jian that was often associated with prestige and high rank and often decorated many powerful people in the history of China.

The facts:
The Qianlong Emperor ruled from 1736-1795, and not over the Qian dynasty but the Qing dynasty. Although he designed many weapons and other equipment for himself and his army, no records that I know of refer to sword specifically designed for him and his family by a third party. The Qian dynasty is probably mixed up with the Qin dynasty, which indeed lasted from 201-255 B.C. but was ruled by emperor Qin Shi and not by Qianlong.

No swords as the one described were made in this era, they were all made of bronze and much shorter than later jian. It is so long ago that the system of use of these jian has vanished entirely, none can say for sure how pretty or effective it has been. The sword in the picture is fitted in typical modern day reproductions of Longquan style fittings, not unlike those also used by ZhengWuTang. They resemble those on weapons carried by the gentry in the late Qing.

-Peter

[josh stout]

Here is a typical bit of misinformation, but not as bad as what you found.

"The basic types of straight bladed swords used in China include:
Wu Jian or "Martial Sword" that is fairly long and heavy.
Wen Jian or "Scholar's Sword" is substantially lighter and primarily carried for self- defense."

The closest to a "wujian" one might find are the heavy militia swords, which tend to be short (22-26 inch blade measured from the guard). The "wen jian" would actually be the typical jian most often seen and it would come either long or short.

And what do you think of this add for a mint condition chang jian with complete fittings?

"(straight sword) blade length: 28" overall length: 36.5" blade width (at forte): 1.25". Heavy blade, flattened diamond cross section, single fuller. Brass fittings adorned with dragons, rudimentary piercing work. Emerald sharkskin covered scabbard, belt hook fitting bears the character for "lung chuan (dragon well)". New long black tassel. $625.00"


or this one:

"(straight sword) blade length: 28" overall length: 35.5" blade width (at forte): 1.25". Heavy blade, flattened diamond cross section, less common double fuller. Blade is of remarkable quality. Pierced brass fittings adorned with dragons. Emerald shark skin covered scabbard, belt hook fitting bears the character for "lung chuan (dragon well)" $700.00"

or this one:

"(straight sword) blade length: 28" overall length: 36.5" blade width (at forte): 1.25". Heavy blade, flattened diamond cross section, single fuller, blade bears brass inlay figures of the character for "lung chuan jian (dragon well sword)" on one side and an archaic style dragon on the other side. Blade bears slight battle fatigue. Brass fittings adorned with dragons. Emerald sharkskin covered scabbard, belt hook fitting bears the character for "lung chuan (dragon well)". Blade bears battle fatigue at the forte. $650.00"

If only it were true.
Josh

[Scott M. Rodell]

I'm gald to see people speaking up about historical inaccuracies concerning Chinese arms. For decades, so many nonsensical "facts" were passed around as gospel, that much work needs to be done to correct the public idea of even what a Chinese sword looked like. But while we are working to bring these inaccuracies to public light, let's try to distinguish between those making honest mistakes & those purposely misleading the public for their own profit.

[Peter Dekker]

Hi Josh,

The differentiation between Wu jian and Wen jian is one I also commonly encountered, even in arms reference books! I agree that there might have been such differentiation in the past but actual antiques seem to indicate that self-defense and battlefield jian do not differ so much in length as they do in sturdyness and finish.

But while we are working to bring these inaccuracies to public light, let's try to distinguish between those making honest mistakes & those purposely misleading the public for their own profit.

I agree. Not so long ago I also believed a number of sword myths, and spread them in my enthusiasm like many others do now.

-Peter

[josh stout]

One term that always gets me is "Chinese broadsword”, invariably meaning oxtail dao. More enlightened websites will then go on to say that there were also narrow bladed sabers "like a samurai sword". Ouch.

Then there are the many descriptions of the "tai chi dao", which is always a willow leaf blade on a dadao handle. This appears to be modeled on one of the many variants of dadao that appeared during the period of the Boxer rebellion, but which certainly could not have been the sword most used by taiji practitioners. It was a few years before I could even find a historical example of a willow leaf blade on a dadao handle, and I think it may have been a case of an old blade on a new handle. Willow leaf and oxtail dao would have been the sabers used by the vast majority of taiji practitioners.
Josh

[Chris Fields]

I believe Chinese broadsword is used so often now a days, that it can be excepted as another name for an oxtail dao. I thought I read somewhere that historically, translating Dao to english meant "broadsword". Is that correct?

Also, you can't be too upset for people saying that the willow leaf daos are "samurai sword shaped" with chinese handles, because they just trying to explain the look using commonly known terms to people who know nothing of chinese swords. It's just a very basic discription.

It's like trying to explain what a European Falchion is to someone who knows chinese swords. I tell them that a Falchion generally is similar in shape to ox-tail dao, but with a European handle. It's just a basic description.

Also,... I was wondering about the historical nature of the "Tai Chi Dao". I was thinking that maybe it is a misinterpretation of a miaodao. But then, I don't know of any historical miadaos out there either. Any thoughts?

[Kenneth, H.]

[...]read somewhere that historically, translating Dao to english meant "broadsword". Is that correct?
[...]

Dao simply translates as "knife"... It does not matter how long or short the blade is, as long as its single edge.. Any single edge arm or cooking apparel is a "knife".

Best regards, Kenneth A.H.

[Peter Dekker]

The word dao does not have an exact English counterpart.

It is best described as any type of single edged weapon or tool, straight or curved, broad or narrow. It goes from pocket knives to sabers to pole arms.

I don't exactly know where the word "broad" entered the stage. Literally, a broadsword would be kuodao in Chinese, a word not found in any historical source I know of, nor used in everyday Chinese. It is true that the vast majority of later Chinese dao were very broad indeed. Much broader than the average Western sword, Western observers might have translated it as broadsword in order to differentiate them from their own sabers.

It's counterpart is the jian that unlike the dao only knows one valid variety: a straight and double edged blade with edges of similar length.

When discussing a "taiji dao" people indeed often mean that willow leaf mounted on a dadao handle. I don't know where the myth started but I can imagine that probably someone, somewhere in history has practised taiji with it.

But when we look at the sword for which the style was created, we should look at military peidao like the willow leaf. As far as we can trace it back taijiquan seems to have originated in the Chen family, who were in the military and would wear a saber at their sides. It was later even taught to the Qing imperial guard, all men with military regulation pattern sabers.

The thing is, along with the introduction of breach loading firearms and the fall of the Qing, these military sabers went out of use and the various late dao of civilian origin got to replace them. I think this is why so many practise taijiquan with a niuweidao these days.

-Peter

[josh stout]

My problem with calling something a "broadsword" is the word in English historically means a medieval two-handed double-edged sword with a long blade. I would be much happier calling an oxtail dao a falchion. The problem is that people are multiply ignorant of sword terms, so falchion would not mean much. That was also my problem with saying "samurai sword" as that term is also meaningless. It is not much use comparing one sword type to another, if you use the wrong term for both swords. It is not that everyone goes around with a picture in their minds of a broadsword that looks like an oxtail dao. When they see the picture posted on a website, they learn the term broadsword by looking at the picture. These comparisons teach the wrong words by combining them with the pictures, leaving a reader ignorant in two cultures.
Josh

[Graham Cave]

When discussing a "taiji dao" people indeed often mean that willow leaf mounted on a dadao handle. I don't know where the myth started but I can imagine that probably someone, somewhere in history has practised taiji with it.

Professor Li Deyin attributes the design of the taiji dao to Yang Chengfu. Is there likely to be any truth in this? - or perhaps Yang Chengfu helped to popularize an earlier style of dao and was credited for it's design by association?

[Peter Dekker]

From what I know, Yang Chengfu started to put a lot less emphasis on the use of weapons in his taijiquan because he saw they were getting obsolete in the modern age. Under him there was a major shift to softer styles and a greater emphasis on the health benefits.

In this light it would be odd if he designed a special taiji saber, but who knows. Does Li Deyin mention a particular source for this information? The liuyedao suits the style well, and perhaps he just used for the guard what was available at the moment so ended up with the then common S-shape rather than earlier military pattern fittings.

-Peter

[Graham Cave]

Does Li Deyin mention a particular source for this information?

No, he doesn't. Quote: "This sabre was designed and modified from conventional broadsword by Grand Master Yang Chengfu to coincide with the practice of the Yang style sabre"

This quote is a translation of Li Deyin's words on a DVD produced by Tai Chi Link. Tai Chi Link is run by Li Deyin's daughter and son-in-law.

[Peter Dekker]

Thanks..

It would be interesting to try to find out if there is any historical ground on which these sabers can be attributed to Yang family taiji.

The only notable functional difference between this kind of saber and a military liuyedao appears to be the guard.

-Peter

[josh stout]

I am pretty sure that the s guard, long handle, and ring pommel were common dadao fittings that were then combined with a variety of blade types. Most commonly they were associated with rebellion/militia nationalist groups such as the boxers and the dadaohui. The antique examples I have seen that look like a "tai chi saber" are usually attributed to the boxers as a default. I think any reputed connection between these and taiji is a later myth. Circa 1900 this particular saber style would have sent a dangerous political message. I have not heard stories of taiji being associated with rebel groups.
Josh