Ming Jian

[B.Ko]

What are some of the salient differences between Ming Jian and Qing Jian?

[Scott M. Rodell]

Unfortunately, there are very few Ming, or even early Qing era, jian for us to examine. The few genuine Ming dynasty jian I have handled were of essentially the same weight, length & balance as similar sized Qing era jian.

Where Ming & Qing jian differ is in the fittings of the scabbards & hilts, I will explain more below. (Give me some time to get some photos scanned & posted...)

[Scott M. Rodell]

The most famous Ming dynasty jian is probably one currently housed in the Royal Armories collection at Leeds (http://www.royalarmouries.org/extsite/v ... ionId=2222) & is thought to date the the reign of the Yongle Emperor.

Yongle was the second ruler of the Mi ... setId=2945

[Scott M. Rodell]

Since there are few examples of Ming jian, or other arms or armor, availble to study, we must turn to period works of art to learn what we can about the swords of the period.

One excellent place to study Ming Swords & Armor is the Spirit Walkway the leads to the Ming Tombs, just outside Beijing.



Along with the animal statues are those of Ming Generals:



The jian these generals carry are hilted with four-lobed saber style guards & pommels with a hole in their center which a tassel runs thru.

[Peter Dekker]

Here some closeups of these jian.





It occured to me that their suspension style (in the middle of the scabbard instead of on the side) reminds of that on Korean gim, perhaps a remnant of Ming influence in Korea.

-Peter

[josh stout]

There are several swords listed in the "History of Steel" catalogue as Ming. (http://www.arscives.com/historysteel/cn.steelswords.htm)

The duan jian are of types that I have often seen described as Ming, but which are not too rare. Number 93 listed as a Qijiadao is at least a design with good evidence that it was used in the Ming dynasty, but I have big questions about #94. It is a luiyedao with German silver fittings, and a blade with a medial ridge and "horse tooth" pattern welding. However, at least to my eye it looks early to mid nineteenth century. The blade style is I think plausible, but the fittings look very much like nineteenth century work.

Thoughts?
Josh

[Peter Dekker]

I had high expections of this exposition but unfortunately these classifications seem to indicate otherwise.

Apart from the ages I also wonder how any collector could know where these swords were made. An item can travel a long way during it's lifetime.

The Qing military swords are unlikely to be made in longquan for the simple reason that bannermen got paid an amount in silver to buy their weapons locally. It was not a state controlled manufacture, the state only set some regulations. These guys did not travel all over to buy their weapons, they went to local makers in their garrisson town or in Beijing and Longquan was not a garrisson town.

I am with you on #94, it appears very Qing to me as well. The curved grip is also not something you see on those early pieces.

#93 the "qijiadao" has the shape, but where are the facets?

#97 is a "senior officer's sword". What is a senior officer? What text or regulation attributes this saber to a senior officer in particular, rather than an "ordinary" officer?

Anyway, back to jian. The two jian indeed have stylistic features that could attribute them to Ming but I also got a late Qing jian in Ming style iron fittings telling me that the style got less common during the Qing but did not completely die out.

An interesting feature in #92 is the forte of the blade being narrow and widening quickly. This is a feature I've seen on some other rather crude and short jian attributed to the 17th century but not yet on any later examples.

-Peter

[Scott M. Rodell]

Given this thread's topic, I thought it might be prudent to make note of methods for Identifying the Age of Chinese Swords, so I looked up an old SFI thread I wrote back in 2002:

Please see: http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread ... eadid=4456

That thread is now closed, but if there is an interest, we can take up the topic again here... just start a new thread if you like...

[Philip Tom]

Hey guys,
Please take another look at the pics of the stone guardian figures at the Ming Tombs, kindly provided by Scott. Note the pommels. Although they have the lobed, flattened pear shape seen on Qing pommels, their greater size relative to the rest of the hilt is something that should be noted.

Also notice the lanyard or wrist loop passing through a hole in the pommel itself. Qing hilts have this hole in the rear portion of the grip itself.

The large size of the pommel, and the position of the lanyard hole, are carryovers from the Song hilt form, which is illustrated in the WUJING ZONGYAO of the 11th century. The same pommel design is seen repeatedly on jian depicted in paintings from the Yuan and Ming Dynasties. Existing sword fittings may be rare to almost non-existent, but there is ample evidence in art.

The elements of Ming jian fittings is covered in a book I have written, which is scheduled to be published by Seven Stars sometime in 2008.

[Scott M. Rodell]

Note the jian carried in this illustration of a Ming Govenor. It differs from typically Qing era jian in two obvious ways: The pommel with a hole for the sword tassel & the segmented scabbard.

I find the scale armor & the shape of his helmet also quite interesting. His helmet reminds me more of the style helmets I would associate with steppe peoples rather than known Ming types.

You can find other Ming Military illustrations at:
http://www.sevenstarstrading.com/articles/articles.php

[Peter Dekker]

Scott, do you know the source of this drawing?

The bow the man carries shows the string not attached to the end of the ear but at the beginning, making the ear useless. This is an inaccurate representation that you often see on artwork made of Asian archers by Western artists.

If I had to guess without knowing, much of the man's attire reminds of that of Korean warriors and so does the size of his bow. I have not studied Korean warrior's equipment extensively but had the chance to see quite some reproduction stuff on my recent trip to South Korea.

-Peter

[Philip Tom]

The characteristics of the jian worn by the official in the line drawing in Scott's post should be compared with some images posted earlier on this same thread.

The division of the scabbard into segments via longitudinal and crosswise ribbing is reflected in the example which Scott posted on 25 April. The jian in the color photo is an example of Chinese court artisanship, designed and made for the Tibetan market, during the Yongle reign (the sword dated somewhere in the first decade of the 15th cent.). The weapon is now in the Royal Armouries Museum at Leeds, England and has been published in Vol 1 (1996) of its Yearbook.

The large pommel containing the lanyard aperture is reflected in the jian depicted in the Ming tomb sculptures.

Another characteristic of Ming jian fittings style not brought up by Scott is the shape of the guard in the drawing. Note that it is flattened, and pointed at the ends. It is the stylized depiction of a dragon's face, the blade emerging from the mouth, and the nostrils appearing at midpoint. The same zoomorphic theme remained in use throughout the Qing, although in this period, the guard becomes somewhat deeper and the ends typically curl back towards the hilt instead of extending out in wing-like fashion as we see here.

[josh stout]

Phillip-
What do you think of the large eyes and nose seen on the Yongle jian and on the second one posted by Athena? I don’t think you see these on later jian.

The jian guard on the last illustration reminds me of the “theta” guards sometimes seen on Qing jian. I also have a set of shuang dao that are clearly late Qing with very similar guards to the one in the illustration. That particular characteristic seems less diagnostic than others.
Josh

[Philip Tom]

Josh,
I've discussed these jian guards with a number of knowledgeable parties, including Don LaRocca of the Metropolitan Museum of Art (Arms and Armor Dept), Robert Hales in the UK (who is also quite conversant with earlier Tibetan material), and so forth.

The Royal Armouries example, plus the plainer on posted by Athena, appear to be distinctly Tibetan in style. The motif is the "kirttimukha" or "face of glory", which is is part of the symbolic repertoire of Tibetan Buddhism. A brief intro to the subject can be found on p 15 of Donald J. LaRocca, THE GODS OF WAR, NY: Metropolitan Museum of Art, 1997. I will also be covering the subject under the discussion of jian in my upcoming book on some of the outstanding sabers and swords in the Met (Sevenstars Books and Video will publish it).

The zoomorphic face on many Qing jian is that of a dragon, the "yaizi". C. A. S. Williams discusses the various types of dragons in his OUTLINE OF CHINESE SYMBOLISM AND ART MOTIVES, third rev edn, NY: Dover, 1976, see article "Dragon".

Both motifs may be derived from the animal-mask motif "taotie" found on archaic Chinese bronzes.

[Scott M. Rodell]

... Royal Armouries example... The motif is the "kirttimukha" or "face of glory", which is is part of the symbolic repertoire of Tibetan Buddhism...

for another example see:
https://metropolitanmuseum.org/toah/hd/ ... 95.136.htm