the dating game: do all tangs age the same?
Moderators:Scott M. Rodell, Philip Tom
-
- Rank: Chang San feng
- Posts:339
- Joined:Wed Jun 30, 2004 10:17 am
- Location:maplewood NJ
- Contact:
Please take a look at this link from an SFI topic I just started.
(http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=78903)
The dating of tangs seems to be a very important skill, but I am having great difficulty developing it. If anyone has pictures of dated Chinese tangs I would appreciate if you could post them here or elsewhere.
Thanks,
Josh
(http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=78903)
The dating of tangs seems to be a very important skill, but I am having great difficulty developing it. If anyone has pictures of dated Chinese tangs I would appreciate if you could post them here or elsewhere.
Thanks,
Josh
hidup itu silat, silat itu hidup
-Suhu
-Suhu
An excellent question, Josh. I would have to guess that there would be different factors affecting oxidation in addition to merely time, including the blade composition, but more importantly, the amount of exposure to moisture. The degree of direct exposure to air would of course affect the speed of oxidation; if the tang were removed from the hilt or grips, for instance, it would be more rapid. I have swords that are in open scabbards whose exposed sides are significantly more patinated than the sides facing the wood.
I find it difficult to believe--and you appear skeptical as well--that one could simply place the color of a tang on some sort of spectum and guess the age closely. We'll have to get a fuller explanation from experts like Scott and Phil, but I suspect it's more of a process of seeing if a tang looks "old enough" relative to similarly old blades and is consistent with stylistic characteristics to date it to a certain period.
I think we'll have some difficulty in finding dated (as opposed to more generally provenanced and attributed) blades, because the Japanese swords were generally built to permit rather easy disassembly, whereas Chinese generally weren't.
I find it difficult to believe--and you appear skeptical as well--that one could simply place the color of a tang on some sort of spectum and guess the age closely. We'll have to get a fuller explanation from experts like Scott and Phil, but I suspect it's more of a process of seeing if a tang looks "old enough" relative to similarly old blades and is consistent with stylistic characteristics to date it to a certain period.
I think we'll have some difficulty in finding dated (as opposed to more generally provenanced and attributed) blades, because the Japanese swords were generally built to permit rather easy disassembly, whereas Chinese generally weren't.
- Peter Dekker
- Rank: Chang San feng
- Posts:395
- Joined:Tue Dec 06, 2005 7:46 am
- Location:Groningen, The Netherlands
- Contact:
I've asked Scott about the tang dating when we were in Beijing looking through a private collection. The dating is of course not very precise but I can understand how one that is experienced can see the difference between something that is for example 100 years old, 200 years old, or 300 years old. Even though some pieces might go faster than others, it takes a long time for crisp metal surfaces to become black and rounded off. And as mentioned, style is surely a factor that is why studying period artwork is of such great importance.
I assume that other than storage, item location is also a factor on the deterioration of a piece:
I've spent some months in Chengdu, Sichuan where in summer the moist in the air goes up to 80%. You can hang your clothes out to dry there and they won't dry! Large parts of Southern China have this climate, or even worse such as Hongkong and Guangzhou. My current place of residence, Beijing, is very dry. Coincidence or not, there were only little antique swords in Chengdu and the gross of them were covered in a thick layer of rust.
Don LaRocca mentions in his catalog that some of the pieces proved much older by carbon dating than initially expected, even leather did not deteriorate in the Tibetan climate because of the dryness and lower oxygen content.
-Peter
I assume that other than storage, item location is also a factor on the deterioration of a piece:
I've spent some months in Chengdu, Sichuan where in summer the moist in the air goes up to 80%. You can hang your clothes out to dry there and they won't dry! Large parts of Southern China have this climate, or even worse such as Hongkong and Guangzhou. My current place of residence, Beijing, is very dry. Coincidence or not, there were only little antique swords in Chengdu and the gross of them were covered in a thick layer of rust.
Don LaRocca mentions in his catalog that some of the pieces proved much older by carbon dating than initially expected, even leather did not deteriorate in the Tibetan climate because of the dryness and lower oxygen content.
-Peter
Knowing is not enough, we must apply.
Willing is not enough, we must do.
-Bruce Lee
http://www.mandarinmansion.com
Antique Chinese Arms & Functional reproductions
http://www.manchuarchery.org
Fe Doro - Manchu Archery
Willing is not enough, we must do.
-Bruce Lee
http://www.mandarinmansion.com
Antique Chinese Arms & Functional reproductions
http://www.manchuarchery.org
Fe Doro - Manchu Archery
-
- Rank: Chang San feng
- Posts:339
- Joined:Wed Jun 30, 2004 10:17 am
- Location:maplewood NJ
- Contact:
So does anybody want to play the dating game? Here is a liuyedao tang from a blade that I would call mid to early 19th century as an educated guess.
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j65/pekhopai/02.jpg
Here is the whole blade.
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j65/pekhopai/01.jpg
I have seen Japanese tangs from the 14th century that at least in photos don't look as old as this one. What do you think?
Josh
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j65/pekhopai/02.jpg
Here is the whole blade.
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j65/pekhopai/01.jpg
I have seen Japanese tangs from the 14th century that at least in photos don't look as old as this one. What do you think?
Josh
hidup itu silat, silat itu hidup
-Suhu
-Suhu
- Peter Dekker
- Rank: Chang San feng
- Posts:395
- Joined:Tue Dec 06, 2005 7:46 am
- Location:Groningen, The Netherlands
- Contact:
Hi,
To me, from these pictures, it is really hard (if not impossible) to tell. It's the little details like crsipness of the edges, darkness of color and deepness of pitting we got to look at. None of these are easy to see in the picture.
I think dating from a picture might never be really possible, even some very sharp and detailed pictures I made of tangs did not result in enabling people on distance to accurately date them.
-Peter
To me, from these pictures, it is really hard (if not impossible) to tell. It's the little details like crsipness of the edges, darkness of color and deepness of pitting we got to look at. None of these are easy to see in the picture.
I think dating from a picture might never be really possible, even some very sharp and detailed pictures I made of tangs did not result in enabling people on distance to accurately date them.
-Peter
Knowing is not enough, we must apply.
Willing is not enough, we must do.
-Bruce Lee
http://www.mandarinmansion.com
Antique Chinese Arms & Functional reproductions
http://www.manchuarchery.org
Fe Doro - Manchu Archery
Willing is not enough, we must do.
-Bruce Lee
http://www.mandarinmansion.com
Antique Chinese Arms & Functional reproductions
http://www.manchuarchery.org
Fe Doro - Manchu Archery
-
- Rank: Chang San feng
- Posts:339
- Joined:Wed Jun 30, 2004 10:17 am
- Location:maplewood NJ
- Contact:
Well I don't think you can be as accurate with pictures, but if the last set was early to mid 19th C, then this one is late 19th C. I see un-oxidized portions of the tang and a general crispness to the edges.
Josh
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j65/p ... 0-full.jpg
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j65/p ... 2-full.jpg
Josh
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j65/p ... 0-full.jpg
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j65/p ... 2-full.jpg
hidup itu silat, silat itu hidup
-Suhu
-Suhu
-
- Rank: Chang San feng
- Posts:339
- Joined:Wed Jun 30, 2004 10:17 am
- Location:maplewood NJ
- Contact:
Hmmm..., the links aren't working.
Second try.
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j65/p ... 0-full.jpg
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j65/p ... 2-full.jpg
Second try.
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j65/p ... 0-full.jpg
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j65/p ... 2-full.jpg
hidup itu silat, silat itu hidup
-Suhu
-Suhu