Brass Dots on Antique Jian

[Linda Heenan]

It is good to see this new forum opening and to have an opportunity to ask some of those "always wanted to know" questions. Since this is the first post on the forum, I know it has never been asked here before. My antique jian has a series of what I believe are brass dots, set into the blade. Here is a picture of one of them:



Do most antique jian have these decorations? Do they help identify a blade within a specific time period or location? Are they, in fact, brass? Or were they made from various metals? What is their significance? How deeply are they set into the blade? Are they supposed to be lined up on either side of the blade? How were they fixed in place? Is it possible to dislodge them or polish them off? Are they always a fixed distance apart or at specific angles from each other? Were there always the same number of them? And anything else someone knowledgeable would like to say that I have not asked yet ....

[Tomita]

Hey Linda.

My guess is there should be 7 stars, right?

There are two explanations, which I can give you on that.

Firstly, the seven stars refer to the Big Dipper, a constellation which was said to be the depiction of China in the sky. I remember reading something about that in a text by Wang Chong, a New Text school philosopher from the first century AD.

Secondly, these 7 stars refer to the required unity of feet, hands and head. There is a tuishou stepping method in Wudang tjq, which I practise. I imagine references can also be found in other systems...

I could be mistaken, but I think you've asked before

Hope this helps

Kind regards,

Tomita

[Linda Heenan]

I could be mistaken, but I think you've asked before

Where? Did I miss a good answer? Yes, I suspected they were seven stars, but wasn't even certain of that. I know the dots don't go all the way through the steel because they don't quite match, but that, sadly, is the extent of my knowledge about a part of my own sword.

Big Dipper, a constellation which was said to be the depiction of China in the sky

Okay ..... why was that said, and by whom? If it is important enough to be put on a sword blade, I'd like to know more.

these 7 stars refer to the required unity of feet, hands and head

How do they refer to this? What does it mean? Now hang on a minute .... head, hands and feet equals 5. There are 7 dots. Now I have more questions than before Your reference is to tuishou. Is there a connection with swordsmanship as well? Were the seven dots the symbol of some guild of craftsmen, such as a mark on the bottom of pottery? Who said swords should have this emblem? Was just anyone allowed to use it? Was it something deeply ingrained in Chinese thinking? If so, why? Why take the time to put it on a sword? These dots have been fixed to my sword blade for 100 years or more. Great care must have been taken to fix them well enough and to make sure they remained there for the life of the sword. I'd like to know both why and how this was done.

[Tomita]

Okay ..... why was that said, and by whom? If it is important enough to be put on a sword blade, I'd like to know more.


Now hang on a minute .... head, hands and feet equals 5. Your reference is to tuishou. Is there a connection with swordsmanship as well?

I forgot to mention the knees. My mistake, sorry I am referring to tuishou, but it is a guideline in taijiquan in general, not to let the knee pass the foot, that all seven should face the same direction, all should move in harmony, etc...You can find it in the classics This also applies in swordplay, doesn't it?

By whom--> Wang Chong is one of them. In the later Han Dynasty, confucianism was heavily mixed with cosmology, my guess is that most of this kind of refences stem from that period. Whether it originates from this time, I dare not say...

My guess is that laoshi has a more informative answer for you. This is all from the top of my head, see

Kind regards,

Tomita

[Scott M. Rodell]

Those interested in this question might like to also read the thread:

Sword Form Posture Name Derivation Etymology
http://www.grtc.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=177

[Linda Heenan]

Thank you for the cross reference Laoshi. I printed off the 44 page long thread on translating a mnemonic poem for a sabre form, and studied it in free moments during the day. Unfortunately some of the links given throughout the thread, were broken, so not all of the original material is available, including something you wrote on SFI, which I think was probably important.

For those interested in the topic of the seven stars on jian blades, I have made an attempt at summarising the relevant information from the thread. It gives some background to the Chinese thinking on seven stars, but does not answer any of my other questions.

Tomita's points are both clarified. In the saber form under discussion, the first line of the Chinese poem mentions seven stars riding the tiger. They describe the seven stars as seven key body areas while preparing to move into the form. A dictionary of Chinese teminology named them as: head, shoulders, elbows, hands, kua, knees and feet. Apparently this is fairly common Chinese understanding and known in taijiquan.

The other point Tomita brought up was the significance of the Big Dipper. Laoshi's reference thread, linked above, adds the following information: The seven stars of the Big Dipper are one of 28 lunar "mansions". Han literature has seven governing the stars. There are seven stars in the Dipper and also seven asterisms that move through the sky - the sun, moon, and five naked eye planets. The Big Dipper plays a role in many northern cultures. In some places, such as Beijing, New York, Madrid, Rome, etc, the Big Dipper is a prominent cluster of stars that remains visible all night throughout the year. Therefore it is familiar and an integral part of the world many relate to. There may be some significance in the Big Dipper appearing to circle the North Pole, and therefore being a central point or "ridgepole" of the visible northern universe. In Australia, we tend to focus on the Southern Cross. We use it on our flags. Perhaps the seven stars of the Big Dipper had nationalistic implications, strong enough to put on swords .... I don't know.....

One more point of interest is that there was reference to an ancient double edged sword, having a seven star design (qixingjian or gu bao jian).

My sword is qing. This is a good start, but I'm certain there is a lot more to be said yet.

[Philip Tom]

The arrangement of seven inlaid plugs on the surface of a jian blade represents Ursa Major, the constellation known as Great Bear or Northern Dipper. Of all the constellations, it is revered by Taoists since it radiates by its tail from the Pole Star, considered to be the site of the throne of the King of Heaven. The Chinese of classical antiquity (Shang through Han dynasties), like the ancient Romans, relied on divination (interpretation of omens) before embarking on campaigns. The Romans were famous for their ability to read the signs in the guts of sacrificial chickens and oxen. The Chinese preferred the less messy alternative of gazing at the sky, and the Ursa Major's position vis-a-vis other stars was of key importance in the conduct of warfare.

[Philip Tom]

Linda, you mention that your stars don't line up exactly on both sides of the blade. In other words, they are slightly offset. It's a good sign on a blade meant for actual use. The holes are actually "blind", that is, drilled in only part way. This leaves the hardened steel center plate (jen) which forms the edges of a sanmei or three-plate forging, intact so that the blade retains its strength.

To keep the plugs from falling out, the holes are slightly undercut at the bottom so that their diameter is slightly larger there than at the lip. When the plugs are hammered in, the softer metal (usually brass, sometimes a copper/gold alloy) spreads out into the hole, firmly locking it in place so that it stays put despite flexing and impact to blade.

[Linda Heenan]

Thank you Philip. That explains a lot. What a simple, but well thought out, and successful way to keep the plugs in place.

Now for the next question - how common was this feature in jian blades? I've only ever seen one antique jian .... my one. Am I fortunate in having one with the stars, or do most blades come the same way?

Linda

[Chris Lampe]

Hi Linda!

The antique jian I owned did not have the seven brass stars although I've seen quite a few photos of antiques with the inlays in their blades.

My (ex)jian was at the sword camp you recently held in January. It was in the posession of a guy with the initials T.M. You might have seen it.

My understanding is that the seven stars are a Daoist symbol and the symbols of Daoism are common on jian. My jian had very different lamination patterns on each side. One side was very active and the other was very mild and subdued. One person suggested that the two sides could be representative of the dualism that is emphasized in Daoism. I thought that was a very interesting idea for a way to incorporate daoist philosophy into a blade without using the 7 stars. Probably not accurate but interesting, nonetheless.

[Linda Heenan]

Hi Chris. Tony was at the Sword Camp but he didn't bring his jian. He took measurements from mine to help in making wooden training swords. Laoshi used my jian to give a talk to the students. I was so busy watching that no one cut themselves or did anything to the sword, that I may have missed a little of what he was saying The blade is so sharp that it took a small branch off a tree accidentally while I was doing a form with it one day. I didn't feel the cut at all. I just did the Great Roc movement and suddenly the branch was on the ground. It makes me want to watch fingers when people are holding my sword.

[Peter Dekker]

how common was this feature in jian blades?

I'd say the brass dots are fairly common on jian. Of the antique jian I've seen so far (which I estimate is about 20-30 specimens of various lengths and weights) almost half had the seven inlaid brass stars. While some of these jian seemed rather light and ornamental, others were heavy jian with practical iron fittings that looked to be made for battle. Some even had damage obviously polished out.

You also see these stars on other weapons ocasionally, like pole arms or sabers but by far not as often as on jian.

I've got a spearhead that has 7 on one side and 6 on the other, totalling 13. One side might represent the big dipper, while the other makes the total of stars 13. Philip pointed out to me that this was a significant number in Buddhism. On the spearhead, the dots also don't go all the way through and are on different positions on either side.

-Peter

[Philip Tom]

For more explanation of the significance of stars in Chinese cosmology, see the article "Stars" in:

OUTLINES OF CHINESE SYMBOLISM AND ART MOTIVES (Third Revised Ed'n), by C. A. S. Williams (NY: Dover, 1976).

The book explains the organization of the heavens into the 28 Celestial Mansions, each of which is a constellation. The descriptions include correlations with Western names for these stars. The 28 Mansions were an integral part of the Taoist cosmology and knowledge of these is important in the study of such subjects as Taoist ritual jian, and the motifs on various flags and banners used by military and rebel forces throughout Chinese feudal and imperial history.

[Peter Dekker]

The 28 Mansions were an integral part of the Taoist cosmology and knowledge of these is important in the study of such subjects as Taoist ritual jian, and the motifs on various flags and banners used by military and rebel forces throughout Chinese feudal and imperial history.

I hope the book is still available somewhere. I've browsed the pages of the Huangchao Liqi Tushi depicting the various flags with constellations on them with great interest... It would be nice to have some background on these.

-Peter

[Annika]

The arrangement of seven inlaid plugs on the surface of a jian blade represents Ursa Major, the constellation known as Great Bear or Northern Dipper. Of all the constellations, it is revered by Taoists since it radiates by its tail from the Pole Star,

Ursa Major doesn't radiate from the Pole Star, Ursa Minor does.
I don't mean to be rude, but it might be misleading.